Different Spaces of Care with Kate Sicchio

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Hi, welcome to Care Of. This is a short form podcast featuring conversations with creators,

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creative technologists about code, work and care. As I traverse ideas and realities of

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care in my life with first my grandparents and now my son, I recognize some shifts in

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the ways of thinking and working, differences in access available or afforded to me. And

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I can't help but wonder how care translates to others in the creator community. This podcast

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wonder how care translates to others in the creator community.

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This podcast is a simple attempt to open up, investigate,

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and document our practices from the lens of care.

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Mathematically, this care is directly

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proportional to time management.

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OK, so we are restarting.

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Let's see if this works.

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All right.

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I think you can hear me now, yes?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly.

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How do you say that word?

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Yes.

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Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. How do you say that word?

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I need to share my parent relaxed with other creative coding people.

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I will always be your number one hype woman.

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Okay, good, good. I'm not used to talking this much.

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I guess I'm out of shape.

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I do actually feel like, to me, the word care,

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I love that you're coming at this discussion with that word

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and I think that's not the usual perspective that you will start with

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when it's, you know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding

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space. So,

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so there's all these different spaces of care to navigate.

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Welcome to care of looking at this short form series this time

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with creative technologists and next time perhaps with other

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kinds of creators. Welcoming our guest today Dr. Kate Sicchio.

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She's a choreographer, media artist, performer and her work

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performer and her work explores the interface between choreography and technology

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with wearable technology, live coding and real-time systems

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Her work has been shown in the US, Germany, Australia, Belgium, Sweden and the UK

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at venues like PS122, Banff New Media Institute and Arnolfi Arts

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She's co-edited the book Intersecting Art and Technology in Practice

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edited the book Intersecting Art and Technology in Practice, Techné Technique Technology,

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is that right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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With Dr. Camille Baker, and she's been invited for talks at EU Parliament, IO Festival, Resonate,

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Note Code, Expo 74, wow, and countless universities and events across the globe.

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And she's an assistant professor of dance and media technology at Virginia Commonwealth

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professor of dance and media technology at Virginia Commonwealth University in

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both the Department of Dance and Choreography and also the Department of

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Kinetic Imaging. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thanks for joining and thanks

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for like my this extremely desperate plea on Instagram which you sort of very

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sweetly answered and I'll talk a bit about what happened there as well when I

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what happened there as well when I got a little bit of a reference from Kofi.

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But I think let's like kind of delve a bit into your very beautiful project,

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Amelia and the Machine, which you sort of have kind of written about.

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But I think it would be nice if you can just introduce it yourself and talk a bit about it.

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A year and a half ago now, a roboticist from my university contacted me and was like, I'm

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a new engineer here. I really want to work with the arts. And he actually made me a PowerPoint

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presentation of things he thought we could work on together, which was really sweet.

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And I was like, okay, well, I'm definitely interested in all kinds of technology. And

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interested in all kinds of technology. And I've done a lot

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with wearables, pulling from soft robotics to make

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inflatables for the body and stuff. So I'm like, robotics

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would be interesting, especially this connection with movement.

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So we started working together and yeah, last February, we

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were able to actually produce a piece together. So it's a

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about a six-minute duet. It's for a dancer and a little

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it's for a dancer and a little manipulator robot, which is essentially, we call them Roombas in the

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States, like little robot vacuum cleaners that are like little discs. So it's like a Roomba with an

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arm that has, they call it a five degree of freedom arm, so it has like five places it can

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move on the arm. So the starting point was, A, how do we get this to dance, but also how do we make

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is, A, how do we get this to dance?

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But also, how do we make it a duet?

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How do they work together to make something bigger

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than just, yeah, a dancer decorating a robot

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or a robot being the same space as a dancer?

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Like, we wanted it to be a real duet.

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So that was kind of where we started.

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How can we, how can they work together?

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Because that's also part of Patrick,

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Patrick Martin is the engineer.

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because that's also part of Patrick.

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Patrick Martin is the engineer.

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But his interest is like creative human robot teams.

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So how can robots and humans work together

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to achieve a task or a goal?

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So yeah, so that's where we started.

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The piece actually looks at this process of how do you

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teach a robot how to move.

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It's actually a really interesting thing

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how do you teach a robot how to move?

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It's actually a really interesting thing

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because as a choreographer,

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even if I work with a really inexperienced dancer,

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I can be like, move your arm and they'll do something.

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The robot starts with nothing.

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You have to be like, move this joint, move this joint,

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move this joint to get it to move its arm.

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It's like, really is this blank slate.

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But there is this like one technique they use in robotics

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where you can actually like, they put sensors on the arm

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and then you can move the arm

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use in robotics where you can actually like they put sensors

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on the arm and then you can move the arm and it will record

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that gesture. And so that became like this epiphany moment

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like oh, this is how we can get movement into this thing and so

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Dr. Martin has a research student who actually ended up

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working on this algorithm that would allow us to record that

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movement and play it back in real time. So we could then

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real time. So we could then start to improvise movement

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with the dancer and robot together live in the

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performance. So that became the real the real thing we

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really wanted to work on in this piece was oh, let's like

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teach the robot a movement on stage and then that movement

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can keep coming back as a motif throughout the work. Yeah, so

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I guess that's the the aim of the piece. So it has this

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That's the aim of the piece.

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So it has this opening section where it's learning a gesture,

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this middle section where they're doing these gestures together,

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and then this third section that's more of both of them expanding on

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these movements and going apart and together and traveling the space together.

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When I saw the video,

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I did think, hey, that looks like a Roomba,

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but then I didn't assume that it would be that,

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but that's really cool to know.

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a Roomba, but then I didn't assume that it would be that. But that's really cool to know.

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So is it like that you hacked it or is it that you kind of used its API or like, I don't

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know how that works.

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Yeah, yeah. So it's an open source robot. So those bases are really common for open

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source robotics, because they're really easy to get it to move a pretty good distance.

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I mean, it doesn't go fast, but it can, yeah, get to where it needs to go for sure.

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can get to where it needs to go for sure.

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Just in terms of the sections of this,

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I mean, I was just curious because I have a design background,

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but I could see that there was a Roomba,

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and then there was the arm,

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and then there was a little camera on the top. Is that correct?

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Yeah. We actually didn't use the camera for vision in this version,

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but the camera head does move.

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We programmed it to move like a head.

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in this version, but the camera head does move. We programmed it to move like a head.

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So there's moments where it looks at Amelia, the dancer.

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It's more like a sort of form of embodiment than just very nice. That's very beautiful.

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And I also, I mean, I know very little about dance and I have very two left feet, but

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I've seen, the only film I've seen about dance is Spina Bosch, but I did sense that

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that repetition had that feel to it of that modern dance kind of, I don't know if that's

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the right reference to Porter.

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Oh, no, no, that's exactly.

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Yeah, yeah, it's totally in that lineage.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So is that also, is that your background as well?

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Like aside from your, so you're a PhD in choreography?

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you're a PhD in choreography?

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Yeah. So I have a background.

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I have a BFA in dance, in modern dance.

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And even before that, though, I had an interest in technology.

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So like as a teenager, I made websites and worked for a dot com startup

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as an intern. And then while I was doing my dance degree,

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I actually was injured for a period of time.

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was doing my dance degree, I actually

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was injured for a period of time.

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And so I went to my university's multimedia department,

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and I said, I know how to code a website.

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What classes can I take?

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And they were like, take any classes.

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You can take anything.

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And when I was well enough to dance again,

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someone said to me, oh, why don't you

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combine these two things?

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And it was like, big epiphany moment.

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these two things and it was like big epiphany moment. These things should go together.

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So yeah, so then I went on to study, I did a master's in digital performance in the UK

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and then my PhD is funny because technically it's in computing. It's awarded from a computing

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as art research PhD.

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So I made four pieces of choreography

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that used real-time video systems that I was making.

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So I mean, it was very computational,

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but the research was all performance-based.

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So it's always been this combination.

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It's always been this modern dance plus technology

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that's literally been my life.

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technology that's like literally been my life.

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Okay, so since this is a fairly new space for me, I mean, I'd be really interested

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to know who are some of the people that that are sort of your inspirations and

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like, both in both in terms of dance, both in terms of technology, and then

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somewhere in the middle. Maybe we'll add those to the show notes, but it'd be

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really like, I mean, I would love to Google those and know more, maybe you

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can recommend a few.

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I mean, I would love to Google those and know more. Maybe you can recommend a few.

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Yeah, yeah. So definitely one of my particularly early inspirations was Troika Ranch. So Don

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Stoppiello and Mark Coniglio. They don't really work together in the same way anymore, but

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definitely still explores this idea of like live media within dance performance. And she's a

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choreographer. She's based in California now. And then Mark, who was the other half of Tricker

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Ranch, went on to make the software Isadora. It's used in a lot of performances. VJs use it. But

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Isadora came directly out of their dance company needing something to play media live and

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play media live and performances.

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So they're, they've always been a huge part of,

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yeah, mentors, just inspiration.

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And always, yeah, doing interesting things

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to combine these two worlds of, yeah,

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programming and dance and liveness.

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And then the live coding community really embraced me

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very early on.

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So I have a lot of inspiration from there.

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I love working with Alex McLean.

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I have a lot of inspiration from there.

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I love working with Alex McLean.

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We're working on some new stuff with robots.

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He's the coolest.

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Yeah, he really is.

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But also people like Charlie Roberts in that community.

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I'm currently doing a project with David Ogborn,

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who's really inspirational in terms of,

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yeah, network performance.

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Those are sort of some of the people that I like,

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yeah, I go to.

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Since you're already talking about live coding,

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like, yeah, I go to. Since you're already talking about live coding, maybe you can just

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give a shout out to your wonderful trio, HiCodie, and tell us a bit about that. Yeah, yeah.

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So I have a audio visual live coding practice as well with my band called Codie. So Sarah

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Graf Hemming-Pallerno does visuals for us. She live codes in a framework she created

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She live codes in a framework she created called La Habra.

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And then Melody Loveless and I do the sound for Kodi, which we do in Sonic Pi, but we collaborate in Troop.

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So we have a networked system, so we can basically code the same piece of code together while we perform.

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It's gotten really smooth, though. I think it used to be stressful. But now we like, no, we don't have to be precious about each other's code. You can just jump in and change something. And yeah, it's in a good place. Yeah.

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Amelia and the machine project.

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I mean, we've heard the technicals and we've heard the base idea,

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but I don't know, maybe you'd like to talk about something.

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You did mention in your note that how

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people have been connecting it to your ideas of motherhood.

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Even when I saw that first one minute of the arm movement,

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the sensors, that was also some connections that I made

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also some connections that I made with machine learning when I was figuring it out early

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on.

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I was like, hey, this is a little bit like how I sometimes instruct my son.

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And I give that as an example to people.

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Sometimes I use cats and pets and things like that to explain to them if they don't have

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children.

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But maybe you can talk a bit about that and tell us if that kind of had an influence in

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terms of how you were thinking about it.

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I think you were a mother when this project started already?

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in terms of how you were thinking about it.

240
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I think you were a mother when this project started already?

241
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Yeah, my son would have been a toddler when I started this.

242
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And I was really surprised, actually,

243
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how people read it like that.

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Like, I hadn't seen that in it

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until people started saying it.

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And then I was like,

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oh yeah, that's totally what it is, isn't it?

248
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I think at one point I realized, like,

249
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the dancer and the robot were, like,

250
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realized like, like, the dancer and the robot were like having

251
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this emotional connection and in the piece, and I was like, Oh,

252
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maybe it's a love story. And then someone was like, Well,

253
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it's, it's about you and your son, right? That's the love

254
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story. And I was like, What? Oh, yeah. And a lot of people read

255
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it about motherhood, because like, it's the robot is like the

256
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size of a toddler, right? It's, it's small, right? And then

257
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,000
small, right? And then like, there's this like, physically

258
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,000
teaching of the of the arm, the movement, and also the way

259
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Amelia approaches it, like, she's very careful, you know,

260
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like she, I mean, you can't be too rough with the thing,

261
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because it's also light. So it would like, but you just pull

262
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it off the ground. But there is a sense of like, yeah, how she

263
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approaches it is very gentle. And she's trying to do it

264
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is very gentle and she's trying to do it smoothly.

265
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And it does, like the way she kind of holds it

266
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with both hands, it does have this like real sense

267
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of like care and yeah, she's just approaching it

268
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with that kind of tenderness that you see

269
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when people are caring for young children.

270
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So it definitely, like as soon as someone started saying,

271
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oh yeah, it's the motherhood, I was like, you're right.

272
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It's all there.

273
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,520
As soon as someone started saying, oh yeah, it's the motherhood, I was like, you're right.

274
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It's all there.

275
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Including the sleepless nights.

276
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Right, yeah, yeah.

277
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So yeah, so this, I mean, I think that gives us a nice idea because that was something

278
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:56,520
that was very reflective in the video, at least when I saw and when I saw your note

279
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as well.

280
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,460
I think I'll now kind of bring it back to the last question, which is more about this

281
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,920
to the last question, which is more about this idea of care at work and home. And you

282
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,720
were on my original list of people whom I wanted to approach for this podcast. And I

283
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,720
was just like contemplating if I should or shouldn't. You know, sometimes you just feel

284
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like, oh, will it work for them or not? And then I just put it out on Instagram, hoping

285
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that you would say, hey, I'm free to do this. And it did happen. But parallelly, Kofi, who

286
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:30,520
Parallelly, Kofi, who is a list preacher, also messaged me about you and he said,

287
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,760
hey, why don't you speak to Kate?

288
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And then I was like, oh, great, that makes sense.

289
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It's like two people, including Kate, are saying this.

290
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:43,040
But he then sent me this really, really amazing talk that you gave in hybrid live coding,

291
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,680
I think a couple of months ago, about your experience as a live coder and a mother.

292
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My own journey in live coding and in coding generally has started only as I was approaching

293
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journey in live coding and in coding generally has started only as I was

294
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approaching motherhood, like when I was expecting. I really wanted to like get a

295
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,520
sense from you both like how it was in the past and you know like a little bit

296
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,760
why you felt you wanted to give that talk and how it all happened.

297
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:11,360
Yeah I think I remember I guess the pandemic also was really weighing on me

298
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:22,000
of care for my child and this idea of how much harder it felt

299
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,440
to put stuff out in the world during the pandemic.

300
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:32,480
So even, yeah, I used to live code at Algoribs very pregnant,

301
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,640
like a couple of weeks.

302
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,920
My last gig was, I think, on the 20th of April,

303
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and my son was born May 9th.

304
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It was like, I think on the 20th of April,

305
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and my son was born May 9th.

306
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I was like really pregnant going to these Algoraves

307
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and playing with Codie.

308
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And then even when he was first born,

309
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we did a show in Philadelphia.

310
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And yeah, my partner came with me and my husband

311
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and we drove up to Philly and Sam was not even,

312
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he was only like seven months old, but he came.

313
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Sam was not even, he was only like seven months old,

314
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but he came, like we got him little ear protectors

315
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and it was in, it wasn't in like a bar or club space,

316
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it was in a more like a co-working space,

317
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so it felt clean, so he was like crawling around.

318
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And like all the other LiveCoders were like dancing

319
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with him, like I have this great video

320
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of Ramsey Nasser dancing with him.

321
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,340
So yeah, I guess like at first I was like,

322
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:28,800
oh, this like the community's welcoming this,

323
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So yeah, I guess like at first I was like, oh, this like the community is welcoming this like I feel good about this.

324
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And then the pandemic hit and it was like so much harder to do things so much harder.

325
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There were no events unless it was online and then I had to like everything felt really hard with timings and it was really, there's no escape from both like providing care or the computer.

326
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or the computer.

327
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So it was really like this, yeah, how do I keep doing this?

328
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,120
I don't feel like I have my community here

329
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,640
with me in the same way.

330
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,240
I feel very much like I'm doing this by myself now.

331
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,960
Ramsey's not here to dance with Sam.

332
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:05,460
Oh.

333
00:19:05,460 --> 00:19:12,840
So yeah, so it became this kind of push to be like, oh,

334
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,120
when we do start to return, when we do start to do things,

335
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,000
to be like, oh, when we do start to return,

336
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,040
when we do start to do things, we have to figure out

337
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,480
how to support everyone and support our carers.

338
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,840
And that's kind of where the talk came from.

339
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,440
I don't want to not bring my son into these spaces

340
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,920
because I'm not pushing him to be in these spaces either,

341
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,200
but I think they're great and he's been well-received there.

342
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,960
But I also don't want to be like,

343
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,520
oh, well, now I have to make lullabies

344
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,800
because I have a child and that's the only way

345
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,160
to do my art now.

346
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,760
like because I have a child and that's what that's the only way

347
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,960
to do my art now. Like there's gotta be this balance and so

348
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,840
that I guess that's what I was like I'm like oh if we're gonna

349
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,680
start doing things again like or even in our online spaces,

350
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,840
how do we consider this thing because it felt really hard

351
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,080
during the pandemic. I mean, it's still really hard, but

352
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,320
things are slowly opening up more like my son goes to school

353
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,920
now. I don't know if I worship anybody, but I definitely

354
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,520
school now? I don't know if I worship anybody but I definitely worship school

355
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:10,800
now. Right. Because it's like okay I have some space and time to do what I want to

356
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,100
do and I really felt that same kind of like what you're talking about you know

357
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:20,480
you want to include your child in these activities but not necessarily that the

358
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,840
activities are very child focused because I mean I feel like it's

359
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,920
important for them to understand us as what we are aside from just being their

360
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,480
And I feel like it's important for them to understand us as what we are aside from just

361
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being their mothers.

362
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,800
So for example, I took Yogan to an art fair that was happening in Delhi and he was very

363
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,040
miserable because it was very hot.

364
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,440
It was 44 degrees.

365
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,680
But it did feel like it gave me an opportunity to, without really saying out in words, to

366
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:50,840
kind of give my son an idea of what it means to be his mom aside from just like washing

367
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,080
to be his mom aside from just like washing his butt and feeding him and you know like

368
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,720
being that person. So I think that was very interesting and I really like resonate with

369
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,760
this and I felt like okay even when I went to the art fair there was no spaces for my

370
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,080
child to be comfortable and either it was like leave the child home or don't come at

371
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,000
all like what why aren't there spaces in the middle because you still need me you still

372
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:17,520
want my perspective you know like I don't know what so I feel like your talk was really

373
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:18,680
you know, like I don't know what, so I feel like your talk was really like amazing and

374
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,920
I felt like it was like I was, you know, I was like, okay, yeah, yes, yes, yes. All of

375
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:30,200
the things that you're saying. How has your practice in a larger space, not just live

376
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:36,800
coding, even, you know, with minute like workflows and things, has it changed both in terms of

377
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,840
both in terms of, of course, the pandemic and the child always being around,

378
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,280
but also in terms of how you plan your project.

379
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,400
Like, what are those aspects of your actual care work,

380
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,440
which is sort of now kind of overlapping with your work?

381
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,280
And how do you kind of like,

382
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,560
what have how has it changed?

383
00:21:58,560 --> 00:21:59,160
Let's just put it.

384
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,400
Yeah, I think it used to be a lot more

385
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,480
used to be a lot more just in terms of scheduling,

386
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,160
it was a lot more freer, right?

387
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,600
Like, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I can work on this thing,

388
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,400
and I can work on it all night if I want,

389
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,020
because no one's going to come wake me up dressed

390
00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:17,920
as a monster at 6 in the morning, which

391
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,600
is what my son did this morning.

392
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,200
So there was this, yeah, just this sense of like,

393
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,320
oh, the work can happen whenever it needs to happen.

394
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,280
Oh, the work can happen whenever it needs to happen.

395
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,600
And now it has to be very planned. It's like, okay, I have an hour here.

396
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,760
And during that hour, I can, yeah, I can run in and get some stuff done. Or like, I have to like,

397
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:46,720
organize a sitter for these nights so I can go to the theater and make sure the lighting for the

398
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:52,160
robot's going well. Or it's the whole thing, lighting the robot to make it a black robot on

399
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,480
That's the whole thing, lighting the robot to make it a black robot on a black stage.

400
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,480
That's that short.

401
00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:03,400
Anyways, so yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of like scheduling that I guess I always kind

402
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,920
of thought as an artist, like, oh, I just will be creative when I'm creative and I can't

403
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,440
force myself into these time things, but it's actually okay.

404
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,440
Like it actually, the work still comes out and it's still creative because it's still

405
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,440
Like it actually, the work still comes out and it's still creative because it's still

406
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,680
in me and it's still, yeah, I don't feel like I'm forcing things based on time.

407
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,440
I'm just doing it.

408
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,800
I'm just trusting my intuitions more and maybe going with my gut more.

409
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,400
That's something actually I've been thinking about a lot, like how much like I'm just like

410
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:39,440
letting things happen and then like not necessarily sitting with them as long, but like trusting

411
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,700
not necessarily sitting with them as long,

412
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,660
but like trusting that it's right

413
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,300
because something in me is telling me that.

414
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,560
Maybe that's a big change in my art making

415
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,980
since taking on a caring role,

416
00:23:48,980 --> 00:23:52,380
is that I trust myself more, which is interesting.

417
00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:56,180
I mean, and yeah, maybe that's a directly connected

418
00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:58,660
to this idea of like something else outside of you

419
00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:00,220
needs your attention.

420
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:03,300
So just trust yourself that you know what's right.

421
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,280
So just trust yourself that you know what's right.

422
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,920
Yeah. I've been, well,

423
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,280
not reading but at least hearing the audio book of very,

424
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,560
very nice one called Baby on the Fire Escape,

425
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:18,040
which is basically compile not histories,

426
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,120
but glimpses into women artists and

427
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:24,720
their role as mothers and how they manage.

428
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,440
The title is reflective of the fact

429
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,860
they managed and the title kind of is reflective of the fact that the child is

430
00:24:28,860 --> 00:24:33,120
almost at the fire escape and you're trying to do something like very focused

431
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,360
but you know you have to divert your attention there or the child will fall

432
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:43,400
like so I think that kind of balance is like always where we are as the primary

433
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,080
carers especially for younger kids. Did you I don't know if you're if you're if

434
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:55,800
So if your mom or your grandmother or the other mothers in your life, were they also

435
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,960
working mothers or are you the first one?

436
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,960
Yeah, yeah.

437
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,160
My mom worked most of my life.

438
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,680
I think a little bit when my sister and I were younger.

439
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,640
I have a younger sister.

440
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,960
I think my mom stayed at home a little bit, but not for long, maybe a couple of years.

441
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:18,560
couple years and then she worked part-time and then started working more and more as we got older.

442
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:24,560
She's a librarian so it was rare we had to go. I just remember a handful of times actually us

443
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:30,080
going to work with her but my father worked from home. He's a woodworker or a retired woodworker

444
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,000
now so he had a big shop in the backyard so it would just be like I'm going to the shop if you

445
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,520
need me and walk 50 feet to his wood shop. So there was always at least one of them around

446
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:42,920
shop. So there was always at least one of them around because even though my mom worked,

447
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,680
my dad worked from home. Yeah.

448
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,640
So I don't know, like, I always find that I'm reflecting on how my mother managed me

449
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,680
and how I can not, I wouldn't say like better or worse, but just generally like what is

450
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,960
what are the things that I'm imbibing and like passing on. So I just wanted to like

451
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:04,400
sense like, do you also have that? Do you kind of sometimes say, hey, you know, I remember

452
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,080
sense like do you also have that? Do you kind of sometimes say, hey, you know, I

453
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,640
remember my mom like dragging me to this meeting, so maybe I can do that to you

454
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,240
again also. Like, do you also have that kind of a thing? At least during the

455
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,640
pandemic you were probably working from home and then now probably you're going

456
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,120
to the universe. Of course, now you said you have a break. But so like, do you

457
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:25,400
sense, I mean, I've been working from home since pre-pandemic and I'm

458
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:33,120
pre-pandemic and I'm continuing to do that, but do you sense like, I don't know, how is it? Just tell me.

459
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:40,480
Yeah, yeah. I mean, teaching during the early days of the pandemic was really hard. We were living in a,

460
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:48,400
like, this pretty open plan apartment at the time when it all kicked off. So, and Sam was very little,

461
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,600
he was like 18 months or something. I remember like having to go and like lock myself in my bedroom

462
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,880
little, he was like 18 months or something. I remember like having to go and like lock myself

463
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,000
in my bedroom to like try to teach a class online on my laptop, like I'm like curled up in my bed

464
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,480
with the laptop and like you would just hear this like these fists banging at the door

465
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,480
because he was always trying to like be and get in and be part of it and then sometimes like if I

466
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,280
wasn't trying to like really convey a serious thing or students weren't presenting, if students were

467
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,160
really convey a serious thing or students weren't presenting if students were presenting that was

468
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,360
like definitely locking myself in the bedroom but if if I was giving more of a lecture he would he

469
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:26,400
would come in and join us and poke his head in and he still does that actually we still have a lot of

470
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:33,760
zoom meetings and he always comes over and tries to look at it now he's usually bored with zoom

471
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,800
like he he gets it it's it's not interesting so he'll wander away

472
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,000
it's not interesting, so he'll wander away.

473
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:47,880
Yeah, it's interesting the amount of video on screens

474
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,080
like he's seen in his life.

475
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000
Like, he gets really upset if there's like a phone call

476
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,120
and it doesn't have like a FaceTime video.

477
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,080
He's like, what do you mean we have just audio?

478
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,280
He's so used to seeing videos of people talking.

479
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:01,780
Yeah.

480
00:28:01,780 --> 00:28:04,760
Yeah, I mean, not that you can get stressed about,

481
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,720
videos of people talking.

482
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,520
Yeah, that I mean, not that you can get stressed about, but I do recall this happened just

483
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,640
yesterday that normally my husband's in the Netherlands right now.

484
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,600
So we do video calls every day.

485
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,320
And then he just like, he was on an audio call because he was on his cycle.

486
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,400
And you can just kept the phone like this.

487
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,240
And then he just was talking to as if you know this.

488
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,880
So I understand it's a very different kind of like muscle memory for them.

489
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Specifically in Zoom calls, I find that now he has, he can recognize people by their icons.

490
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:42,000
And so do you have those instances where he started to understand who's who and,

491
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,160
and kind of like react to it in a different way?

492
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,680
Yeah, yeah. So Melody from Kodi was actually here in Richmond for the last few months.

493
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,480
here in Richmond for the last few months.

494
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,760
She was a guest sound artist at my university.

495
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,520
And so he knows her from our CODI practices

496
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,640
and he knows her from Zoom.

497
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,760
But the thing he knows most is she usually zooms

498
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,520
in front of like a yellow wall.

499
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,840
And so he's like, Melody's favorite color is yellow.

500
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,600
He's very definite about this.

501
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,640
And like, and he asks her like the first thing

502
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,480
when he sees her, he's like,

503
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,400
Melody, is your favorite color yellow?

504
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,240
It's the very first thing he says

505
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,080
when he sees her in person.

506
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,040
favorite color yellow. It's the very first thing he says when he sees a person.

507
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:23,920
So sweet. Yeah, I was interested to know how he responds to the CODI team also because

508
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:31,120
that's a more regular kind of conversation that you must be. And you don't need to like necessarily

509
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,400
like close the room on him on those occasions. Right. Yeah. He's very used to it now. And

510
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,000
now. And also, sometimes we do Sunday morning rehearsals

511
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,000
usually, and if we're in a really extended one, sometimes we'll just code for 45 minutes.

512
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,000
But because I'm coding with Melody, I also feel like I can leave the computer for a minute,

513
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,000
particularly in those long sessions. So if he needs help getting water or something,

514
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,000
I have no problem leaving the computer and helping him and then coming back.

515
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,440
coming back. And I know it's funny, it doesn't feel like anything's being interrupted, like

516
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,920
Sarah and Melody are just, they're still going.

517
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,120
But do you sense that once you start doing live again, that if he's in the space with

518
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,840
you, he may want for you to like step off the stage while you're doing the performance

519
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,320
or is, I don't know, is he that kind of a kid?

520
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,240
Yeah, he'll probably want to join me on stage. That's what kind of kid he is. He has a performance

521
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,320
to join me on stage. That's what kind of kid he is. He has a performance streak for sure.

522
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:39,360
Always has. Yeah, so much like me. But so I like, I more imagine him like crawling up on stage

523
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:45,520
and somehow trying to be part of it. We even went to like, it was like a Irish pub thing. It was like

524
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,320
a band, a polka band. That's what it was. It was a polka band playing at a pub. And he was like,

525
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,040
band playing at a pub. And he was like, he kept going, when are we going up?

526
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,320
When's it our turn? Like he wanted to be on stage playing music.

527
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,720
That's interesting. That's so cool.

528
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,080
So like, has he like picked up something already,

529
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
like some kind of instrument at home or is it more like being on stage,

530
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,120
which is exciting?

531
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,960
I think it's the being on stage, like attention part. Um, but he does,

532
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,720
he plays harmonica a little bit. He's actually decent at it.

533
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,160
He plays harmonica a little bit. He's actually decent at it. He doesn't know any songs. I mean,

534
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,400
I don't know. I guess we could look up YouTube videos on how to actually play it. But that's

535
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,920
his thing is, yeah, playing harmonica. And did he take to school? Like, was he happy to go there?

536
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:34,320
Was he very clinky? And like, especially after the pandemic, that's been a sort of general theme that

537
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,440
they're not able to like readjust to being socializing with their own age group and things.

538
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,480
to being socializing with their own age group and things.

539
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,480
How is that working out for Sam?

540
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,480
Yeah, actually the social part is the only part he likes.

541
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:45,480
Right.

542
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,480
It's hard to get him to go in the mornings just because,

543
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,480
actually in the mornings is when they do like what they call center times,

544
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,480
the more focused learning stuff.

545
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,000
I mean, it's still all very play-based, but that's the part he doesn't like.

546
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,480
He likes the kids and he likes being with his friends.

547
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,000
And you can't pick, like when it's time to pick him up, he doesn't want to leave.

548
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,000
friends and you can't pick, like when it's time to pick him up, he doesn't want to leave.

549
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,740
It's actually a struggle to get him to leave because he's like, I'm playing, give me two

550
00:32:08,740 --> 00:32:09,740
more minutes.

551
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:16,520
Yogen took a really long time to get used to going to school and he hated that he couldn't

552
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,080
be near me.

553
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,320
And even after the weekend, on Monday, he's like, oh my God, I have to go back.

554
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:28,320
But by Wednesday, he's like, okay, my bus is here, I better get ready.

555
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:31,840
day he's like, okay, my bus is here, I better get ready. So, but how is it for Sam? Is he

556
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,940
okay to be shoved off in the morning?

557
00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:39,240
It depends on the day. Yeah. I mean, like, the first thing he asks every morning is,

558
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,120
is it a home day or a school day?

559
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,520
Oh my God, I get that too.

560
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:51,280
Yeah. Is it a home day? Yeah, it's less about being with me. And more about just like, he

561
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,360
being with me and more about just like, he doesn't like to follow the rules. I mean,

562
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,520
I mean, he'll do it because he like he knows he's supposed to. But at first he really struggled

563
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,360
with like, well, why are they telling me it's lunchtime? I tell you, I tell them when I'm

564
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:10,520
hungry, you know, like it's like the structure that he, that he struggles with. Not, um,

565
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:16,880
yeah, he doesn't, I don't think he particularly misses me. Um, cause he likes his friends

566
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:19,040
particularly misses me. Because he likes his friends there. He likes the social part. That's

567
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,160
the only part he's really into. But yeah, he definitely is not interested in being told

568
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,480
what to do. He's not interested in their schedule.

569
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,480
Makings of an artist already.

570
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:39,200
Yeah, yeah, totally. He questions everything like, why do we have to do this now? Why now?

571
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000
Why now?

572
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,800
So when we're looking at the Amelia and Machine project,

573
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,160
you mentioned in your notes that it

574
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,640
is going to be live coded, perhaps in the future.

575
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,440
So maybe you can tell us a bit about that.

576
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,640
Yeah, so one of my goals is to be

577
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,600
able to live code robots and dancers together,

578
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,880
sort of blending these works I've done in the past.

579
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,840
So this idea that I would give live instructions,

580
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:08,480
idea that like I would give live instructions and then both the human and the robot would interpret

581
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:16,320
and what would that look like. So that involves making some kind of AI for the robot that will,

582
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:23,200
we're working on, it's very complex, but we're working on making sort of a movement library

583
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:29,360
for it to learn and then variations on the movements. And then this idea that we would

584
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000
and then variations on the movements.

585
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000
And then this idea that we would incorporate

586
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,000
the computer vision at this point.

587
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,000
The camera would actually work, not just be a little head motif.

588
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,000
So it could recognize both the instruction

589
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000
that it's given, but also what the dancer is doing.

590
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,000
So they could somehow make it work together

591
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,000
that's live-coded. So that's the eventual goal.

592
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,000
Yeah, it would be very...

593
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,000
We're going to do it. It's going to take like five years, but we're going to do it.

594
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,440
Yeah, it would be very, yeah, that's we're gonna do it. It's gonna take like five years, but we're gonna do it

595
00:34:53,760 --> 00:35:00,760
Right, that's amazing. Cool. Okay. I don't know what else did I have any more questions?

596
00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:08,460
No, I think what does care mean to you at work at home? I don't think we specifically spoke about work, but

597
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:14,800
Yeah, maybe just like give us a little bite about I mean we did so

598
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,560
little bite about, I mean, we did,

599
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,560
so, so Sun did this that she spoke about care in terms of

600
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,440
her students because she teaches creative coding

601
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,160
in a high school and you kind of did mention that very like,

602
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,560
particular about not having Sam in the room if you're doing

603
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,760
presentations for the students.

604
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,720
That's quite nice and sort of giving them the respect

605
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,480
that they need but maybe you can just give us a bit of

606
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,720
an idea of what that means, I think specifically for

607
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,000
need, but maybe you can just give us a bit of an idea of what that means. I think specifically

608
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,400
for educators, that's so important to have that kind of connection with students.

609
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,760
Yeah, I think one of the things that's interesting about teaching in an art school is there's

610
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:57,480
a lot of trying to like create scaffolding of care for students because they are emotionally

611
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,520
invested in their work. A lot of them want to be vulnerable with their work. I teach

612
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,480
be vulnerable with their work. I teach in two departments and they have very different,

613
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,200
not ethoses, but the students have very different approaches to this and sometimes the care has to

614
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,480
be slightly different too. So like with the dance students, like they're using their bodies,

615
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,240
they're like actually putting their physical self into the work. So there is like this extra layer

616
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:28,080
of care that has to go in from everything from critiques and feedback to actually what you're

617
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,720
and from everything from critiques and feedback

618
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,280
to actually what you're physically asking them to do.

619
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,160
The language you use around bodies

620
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,740
in these spaces has to be very specific.

621
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:37,200
So there's like a real set,

622
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,600
a code of care that goes into dance spaces

623
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,580
that's I think really special and really considered.

624
00:36:43,580 --> 00:36:46,760
And it's really easy to slip up in that space too

625
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,040
because it is such a like very unique thing

626
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,080
when the art is your body.

627
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,680
In my kinetic imaging department,

628
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,760
very unique thing when the art is your body.

629
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,640
In my kinetic imaging department,

630
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,140
it's a media arts department,

631
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:56,400
so it does have this sense of like,

632
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,840
my feelings are being mediatized,

633
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,400
I'm like one removed.

634
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,160
There is sometimes a little bit more freedom in

635
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,720
terms of language you use to give feedback because you

636
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:12,800
can really critique this piece of code rather than the body.

637
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,400
Okay, let's look at this function rather than,

638
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,800
let's look at how you're holding your arm.

639
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,840
the body. Okay, let's look at this function rather than let's look at how you're holding

640
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:22,780
your arm. Right? So there's like an interesting difference in how, how you hold the space

641
00:37:22,780 --> 00:37:28,740
and how you care for the students in that sense. But I think also in general, I do try

642
00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:32,860
to think of my students in terms of like, I care for you and that's why I want to make

643
00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:38,420
you better artists. And that's why I really want to be here with you in this time at art

644
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,200
to be here with you in this time at art school.

645
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,740
And I think some of them really get that and are like,

646
00:37:41,740 --> 00:37:43,900
yeah, let's make the most of this and really push me.

647
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:45,760
And some of them are like, no.

648
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:49,660
Some of them definitely have like more of a,

649
00:37:49,660 --> 00:37:51,180
they just want to make their thing.

650
00:37:51,180 --> 00:37:53,480
They don't necessarily want it to be better.

651
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,300
They just want to put it out there and see what happens.

652
00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,820
That's an interesting space to navigate with them

653
00:37:58,820 --> 00:38:01,460
in terms of how do you, as a instructor and teacher,

654
00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:03,180
feel like that's enough when you really care

655
00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:05,500
and want them to push further.

656
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,400
instructor, teacher feel like that's enough when you really care and want

657
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,360
them to push further. So there's all these different spaces of care to

658
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,360
navigate.

659
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,400
Care Of is a spin-off of Computational Mama's live coding stream called

660
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,240
Coding with Friends. Coding with Friends casually and simply claims spaces for

661
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:26,520
women creators. The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of

662
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,000
extends the idea of live coding as a form of camaraderie, friendship and care.

663
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,840
But after two seasons of coding with friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

664
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,920
in a pre-recorded format where the invited guests can talk more intimately about their

665
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,240
work, their lives and their ideas of care.