Caring Across Generations with So Sun

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Hi, welcome to Care Of. This is a short form podcast featuring conversations with creators,

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creative technologists about code, work and care. As I traverse ideas and realities of

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care in my life with first my grandparents and now my son, I recognize some shifts in

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the ways of thinking and working, differences in access available or afforded to me. And

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I can't help but wonder how care translates to others in the creator community. This podcast

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wonder how care translates to others in the creator community.

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This podcast is a simple attempt to open up, investigate,

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and document our practices from the lens of care.

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Mathematically, this care is directly

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proportional to time management.

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OK, so we are restarting.

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Let's see if this works.

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All right.

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I think you can hear me now, yes?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly.

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How do you say that word?

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Yes.

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Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. How do you say that word?

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I need to share my parent relaxed with other creative coding people.

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I will always be your number one hype woman.

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Okay, good, good. I'm not used to talking this much.

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Like, I guess I'm out of shape.

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I do actually feel like, to me, the word care,

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I love that you're coming at this discussion with that word.

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And I think that's not the usual perspective that you will start with

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when it's, you know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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So there's all these different spaces of care to navigate.

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I'll just introduce our guest today.

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We have So Sun with us.

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She is a creative technologist.

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She's currently in Seoul, Korea.

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She has been working with web platforms and libraries like P5.js and 3.js.

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She majored in theater and media in undergrad.

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She found out about VR and creative technology during her senior year.

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undergrad. She found out about VR and creative technology during her senior

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year and since then she's been pursuing the path of a web developer and creative

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technologist. Oh, so does that kind of mean that you learned coding on your own?

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Like sort of, but I did take com-sci courses in my undergrad. I took

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like one or two classes per year. It wasn't enough for me to like

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per year. It wasn't enough for me to graduate as major or minor, but I was pretty close to minor,

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doing a minor, but it was kind of too late because I decided to focus on programming

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junior, senior year, so that was a bit late to change. But after my school,

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After my school, before I came back to Korea, I tried the summer camp from NYU ITP.

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And yeah, I learned a lot of creative technology, creative coding there.

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And decided that maybe I want to study more programming, either through BrookCamp or on my own.

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on my own. So after I came back to Korea, there was this like a pretty nice... It was almost free

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like the dorms and the classes. It was sponsored by this university and some company in Korea. So

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yeah, I went to this boot camp and it was more focused on like big data and AI. But still it was

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was more focused on big data and AI. But still, for me, it was a good experience to spend

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a good amount of time just studying programming and computer science. So yeah, after that

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boot camp, I got a job, like full-time job as a developer. And yeah, since then, I'm

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And yeah, since then I'm working as a web dev and also doing like creative tech stuff.

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So the ITP thing was... the boot camp was also in the US?

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No, no, no. Boot camp was in Korea.

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Yeah, just wanted to clarify that.

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So I mean, I've been following your journey of creative coding for like almost, I would say like now two years plus.

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Just like maybe as Eliza said, pre-pandy.

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two years plus just like maybe as Eliza said pre-pandy. So I just I think I mean

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I've mentioned this to you of course a couple of times but I think aside from

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the work it was really exciting for me to see your grandma in some of the

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stories. Oh thank you. Because it kind of endeared me to the fact that okay you're

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you're kind of you're with her but also that you're quite open to like sharing

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sharing her stories and like, you know, having her, her life kind of be open in your Instagram

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because I think everyone tends to have very like curated kind of stories and here was

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someone who was like, very quite honestly having these strange little snippet conversations,

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which I couldn't understand obviously, because I'm Korean, but thanks for that. So I'll quickly

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So I'll quickly, maybe we'll jump a little bit into the questions.

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And I think the first one is the simpler one where we talk about a project you care about.

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Yeah, I guess this one project, if I have to pick one project, I already talked with you before.

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But I would say it's this my recent project that I made with 3js.

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my recent project that I made with 3JS.

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It's called Uljiro has no park.

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Uljiro is like one of the districts in Seoul, in Korea.

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And this project was a part of the art grants

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like project, like an installation

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yeah, installation piece funded by

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the Seoul Foundation of Arts and Culture.

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funded by the Seoul Foundation of Arts and Culture

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I've been more used to making daily sketches with P5JS

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as you saw on, you know, in my Instagram

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So until this one, I was just more doing this like day by day

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like daily coding kind of works

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So it was quite refreshing for me to have like a bit longer term process of organizing ideas, like making storylines, modeling and programming all together

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Because I wouldn't do that like on like a daily sketches

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Like not this thoroughly and this one was almost like it almost took like four to five months

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It almost took like four to five months. So that was like a pretty long

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Yeah, like a long-term process for me and

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Since I'm coming from a theater background, like I've always known myself like I enjoy good stories

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I like, you know, like those like dramas or cartoons or you know, anything any content with like a good storylines

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so but I

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couldn't really

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lines. But I couldn't really combine it with the technology so far besides like VR or you

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know other like story heavy content. So it was like a meaningful opportunity for me to

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try storytelling element with technology. And because while doing this Uljiro project,

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Like, it was the whole gist of this art was, the whole project was imagining the future of this city.

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So I had to sort of come up with like a rough like synopsis, like kind of like a sci-fi novel thing.

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Yeah, and also during the process, like my producer actually shared some sci-fi novel references.

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the process, my producer actually shared some sci-fi novel references or other movies, images

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and I found out that I really enjoy sci-fi. And I was almost sad that I didn't realize

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how exciting this whole sci-fi word is when I was younger. If I had known it, I would

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like known it I would like read so much more books or cartoons but yeah anyways like this project and

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the whole process was um they overall gave me great lessons and inspirations so um yeah this

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was an impressive one for me and I guess when um since the question was like that I care about and

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care about and I think one of the main topics of this project was nature. So this is one

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of the reasons why I care about this project compared to other like creative coding sketches

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that I've done before. I made an... So as I said, this is an imaginative park with like

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with nature elements and I added low poly trees, L-system trees, and also geometric grass fields

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because I was making most of the world with 3JS coding.

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And long story short, my interest in nature and probably one of the reasons why I

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put this nature element in this project is

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put this nature element in this project is

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my home environment is so close with nature.

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I live with my mom and my grandma, my whole family.

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And since I was young, we always have

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like flowers and plants at home.

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And there's a mountain literally right next to my home.

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So like in our village.

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literally right next to my home. So like in our like village. So yeah and we live in a suburb area

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so we're just like I've been close to nature the whole time and even when I was not living

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with my family like my high school or my college like weird enough like they were all

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weird enough, they were all in the middle of mountains or in the middle of nature.

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So yeah, I think that's kind of one of the reasons why I care about this project.

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Yeah.

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Great. I mean, I really like that you kind of referenced it back to your home,

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especially because the project is...

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So I suppose Iljero Park is very much about...

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Euljiro Park is very much about has no park is it sort of isn't that a locality like in the middle of Seoul?

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Yeah, it's so is it does it have any like aside from the I mean very obvious fact that you're saying it has no park

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But is most of the city like that like there are very few

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like

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so Euljiro

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actually, there is like a

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Artificial

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artificially made lake, like a long lake which crosses through Seoul city.

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And that lake has sort of... It's not like a circular or square park that we imagine as a park.

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But it's just like a long stream and people can stop by or walk along.

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can like stop by or like walk you know walk along but like Uljiro especially

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there are so many like stores and buildings and the gentrification is happening so it's kind of

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it was kind of besides that lake and that artificially made place it was pretty hard to

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It was pretty hard to find nature

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So yes, there is kind of a park you can say nearby

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But to me, it didn't feel like functioning as a park in the city

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Right, I was hoping to understand because I remember very clearly that you had put a lot of these interesting pictures

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pictures from like or even screen grabs from your work with Monster Mash and how

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you kind of created all those characters. So maybe if you can tell us a bit more

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about that process, like how you were thinking about it. Because of course

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building the space is one thing but like why those characters in particular? Like

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is there a reference to them? How that kind of the journey, how did it come about?

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Yeah, so since I wanted to build a 3D environment, I definitely needed like 3D modeling.

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But like I spent a lot of time thinking about the ideas and how to you know like make some story with this city and like in my work.

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So well, like one of the first reason I picked Monster Mash like is well first it was really really fun

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Just to play around with it like I found about Monster Mash through this like some Instagram post

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like a pretty big project featured in SIGGRAPH.

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And yeah, like, and it's just like so quick,

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like you can draw anything and then it will turn into 3D.

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And like that sort of like a very, you know,

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kindergarten feeling of, you know, drawing and like,

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you know, changing and like playing around with it.

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Like that element was really fun for me.

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That element was really fun for me.

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And also, I'm not a 3D modeler.

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I'm trying to learn Blender more.

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But I'm not there yet to model a lot of fancy things.

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So, just the look of these monster-matched creatures,

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I thought it was just perfect for me.

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To just put it in my word.

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I just put it in my word.

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And also, my producer actually told me to...

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He actually recommended it.

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I showed him this...

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There is something called Monster Mash

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and you can do this like this.

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And I intended to use it just for the sketch purpose

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in the beginning.

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in the beginning and later I tried to use more 3js geometries and maybe hire a blender person

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or buy 3D assets. But then he actually suggested that when the producers and also other artists

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other artists that I did installation with, they really liked my hand drawing feelings and

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they knew I'm not coming from a fine art or design background. So I think they almost

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felt like this feels like a little kid drawing something. So yeah, so my producer

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Yeah, so my producer recommended it. I think that kind of embraces your own style in some way.

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And he told me that it seems like there's something to explore there.

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So why don't you just try with that, you know, like a quirky, like, you know, like a fuzzy, you know, movement and all that.

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movements and all that. So yeah, and I just wanted to make something just

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enjoyable and like fun to watch. So although this could be some like serious

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like topic or issue, like in general like yeah I just want people to

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like have fun with it. So just you know like as a as an element of humor.

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just as an element of humor.

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And you'd put it up as a physical installation, am I right?

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For a couple of months or some weeks or something?

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Yeah, we had to. And mine is available as an online website

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if you have a good GPU, a good graphic card.

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Because it has a lot of 3D models there. I tried to optimize it

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Yeah, because it has a lot of 3D models there. I tried to optimize it, but there's a certain limit.

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But yeah, in the gallery, that piece was there for two months along with other artists' works.

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And yeah, we kind of made it like a game, you know, just like a racing game.

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game, you have like three or four monitors in front of you and you like

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sit in the chair and like play with a, what is it, like a PlayStation, Xbox

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controller. So it was like a similar setting. I posted on my Instagram too. So

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you can see like three TV screens and like a sofa and this like one Xbox

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Xbox controller and my producer and I, we decorated the whole place, the whole space

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with fake grass. So that, yeah, in the whole gallery, that space was like the only, you

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know, like the only space with like a fake grass, like a nature vibe. So, yeah.

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like a little patch of grass in the middle of nowhere.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And was there any kind of response that you really like was unexpected for you

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when it happened in the physical space or something that you really loved about the way people were interacting with the piece?

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Yeah, I think like people, well, I wasn't there the whole time,

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there the whole time but I put these interaction memos which kind of pop up when the user comes

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close enough to each model. So when they interact with this robot face or a human 3D character

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like a person, like a human 3D character, then this like a little message will pop up

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as if, you know, kind of like an NPC sort of vibe. So yeah, I think people... A lot

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of people actually like more than I expected enjoy the interaction and just like walking

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around I think just walking around in the space and just seeing all these like weird

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And just seeing all these weird 3D models and trying to figure out what is this, what

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is this model, where is this model coming from and try to match with something they

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saw in Euljiro.

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Because I picked some of those models from the actual graffiti arts in Euljiro city.

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So I would literally just take a photo of it or kind of like a copy, draw it and then

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just like take a photo of it or kind of like a copy draw it and then like made it as a 3D.

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So some people would like recognize those, oh this is what I saw like when I was coming here

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you know something like that. And like yeah all the coffee shops or kind of like a hipster

223
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,720
sort of elements in the city like I would just like you know throw a lot of like elements that

224
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like elements that people might remember. So yeah, that was fun to watch. But at the

225
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same time, I guess the audience who are into gaming, they catch up really quick. They know

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like where to go, they know what to do and everything. But if he or she is not really

227
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if he or she is not really into gaming and not really familiar with all these computers

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or Xbox controlling, then they can get easily frustrated.

229
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So yeah, I think that's kind of maybe because our audience and gaming people, there's some

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sort of distance, I guess.

231
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So yeah, that's interesting to watch.

232
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And I realized again that I should make UI or UX much more friendly to people

233
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if I'm introducing this to public.

234
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So yeah, that was a good lesson.

235
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I didn't know about the sci-fi references,

236
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but I just felt like maybe if you can tell us a bit more about the ones that you read

237
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Maybe if you can tell us a bit more about the ones that you read and how that's kind

238
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of changing the way you're thinking about all of this now.

239
00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:03,580
Yeah, so my producer introduced me to this book called Folding Beijing.

240
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So it's a sci-fi novel that talks about the future of Beijing, which is even now overpopulated

241
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and how the city can handle these people.

242
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how the city can handle these people.

243
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So it talks about like hierarchy and like time and space of the city,

244
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how all these people are going to share the same space and like limited resources.

245
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So in general, I was kind of influenced by it.

246
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And also because this project was imagining the future

247
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So, because this project was imagining the future and I wanted to bring some sci-fi elements

248
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I just made a really direct reference, like drawing robots and robots plus animals or

249
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mutations of robots and humans, something like that.

250
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:09,440
those things and quickly made them into drawings. Because like Euljiro is like

251
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one of the city, one of the districts in Seoul that has a lot of hardware shops

252
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and like computer or electric electronic devices. Like they sell a lot of those

253
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,560
They sell a lot of those in Uljiro.

254
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:34,880
And it's kind of like an insult if you're buying electronic devices or wires.

255
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,280
That's the place you go.

256
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,160
It has a lot of shops.

257
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:46,640
So when I was imagining the future, if Uljiro is still alive in the future, then yeah, they

258
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:47,640
will probably...

259
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:57,060
And at some point, they would have to either follow the trend or move on to the next technologies.

260
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So I thought, because this is a district of hardware, maybe it will turn into something

261
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related to robotics.

262
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:13,560
So yeah, I just try to bring in sci-fi elements there.

263
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,560
That's pretty cool.

264
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,000
elements there.

265
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,000
Right, that's pretty cool. But I'll refocus the context a bit because we've been speaking

266
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about the project. So as I mentioned, I was sort of drawn to you and your work because

267
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:31,080
of your stories. I think around like when I was 24, 25, I also had to kind of move to

268
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look after grandparents. And I mean, they're really independent in that sense, but also

269
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sometimes they need a lot of help. And I think when I saw your stories, I could sense that

270
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,160
need a lot of help and I think when I saw your stories I could sense that

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you know there was this... I mean I can sense that you know she has a

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very strong streak which is very independent but also you can see

273
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the physically that she needs help and that was something that I was

274
00:23:54,160 --> 00:24:00,640
always curious about and I always like to know what people are behind

275
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the sketch, behind the code that you're doing and what you're doing in terms of

276
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behind the sketch, behind the code that you're doing and what you're doing in terms of your practice,

277
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in terms of your workflow at home. For example, the reason I got into coding was

278
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very simple that I was doing museums which take many many years and

279
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suddenly I could do code and the response was five minutes and it worked really well with me having a very small baby whose

280
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needs were always much faster.

281
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Needs were always much faster. So like, okay, you finished it and you can go do your diaper change or like go give food or

282
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Cleanup or whatever else right? So it so now my workflow has kind of built around that idea that

283
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:44,640
The focus for the child has to have like a little bubble and the focus of the work has to have a bubble

284
00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:48,320
Sometimes the bubbles interconnect like the interruptions and things like that

285
00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:52,820
So now like if I know okay uninterrupted work means the child should be asleep

286
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,120
like that. So now like if I know uninterrupted work means the child

287
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:55,680
should be asleep. So like right now Yugen is asleep. So I just wanted to know a

288
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:01,280
bit more about all of those kind of ideas. Like I think did you studied

289
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,000
in your university in Korea? Were you abroad somewhere?

290
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,560
Oh yeah I was in New York.

291
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,200
Yeah so tell us a bit about how you know like moving, coming back and all of those

292
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,680
and then a little bit about more about the question.

293
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,600
about more about the question.

294
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,440
Yeah, like when I was in New York, as I said,

295
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,680
like I started with like theater and media and then I got into technology.

296
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,720
Like I decided to like focus on technology a little later.

297
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,200
I guess it's really interesting that you said how the speed of like coding and like,

298
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,000
you know, like a work tempo kind of like a match with your lifestyle.

299
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,040
That's really interesting.

300
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,760
Like I don't think like that's kind of like how I'm doing it,

301
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:42,360
I don't think that's kind of like how I'm doing it, but I think it makes sense for me

302
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:49,480
now because I'm doing programming or in other works at home while I have to sometimes go

303
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,480
see and check if my grandma is doing okay time to time.

304
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,680
Kind of using that as a break time, I guess.

305
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,940
But anyway, back to the...

306
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:02,540
I came back to Korea and all that.

307
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,160
I came back to Korea and all that.

308
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:08,960
So after my college and I worked for a year in New York

309
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,680
And then I came back to Korea

310
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,960
Around then, I wanted to work in New York City

311
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,800
Like just continue it

312
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,080
But at the same time, I knew my grandma is getting old

313
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,080
Maybe I want to spend more time with her

314
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,400
You know, like I don't know when you know when

315
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,640
She's gonna get sick or you know, whatever what happens. So I wanted to take

316
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:39,920
Um or spend more time with her. So I came back to Korea and after a year or less than that

317
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:47,200
Yeah within a year she got hospitalized because like she got sick. Um, there was something in her brain

318
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,340
So yeah, that's just um unforgettable

319
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,000
So yeah, that's just unforgettable.

320
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:57,800
But it was really a God's miracle that she got better because all doctors were saying

321
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,000
that it's almost like a 60%…

322
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,840
Like 6 to 4, you know, or even less than that because she's very old now.

323
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:14,280
She's over like 95 right now and that was just a few years ago.

324
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,600
So she was still like over 90s or something.

325
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,840
was like just a few years ago.

326
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,880
So she was still like over 90s or something.

327
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:24,080
So yeah, like after that I think I was working as a developer in Korea.

328
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,880
And I was like, okay maybe I can spend more time with her.

329
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:35,840
And while I'm you know kind of like settled down with my career.

330
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,640
More kind of used to getting like you know adjusting to my new career as a developer.

331
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,600
or kind of used to getting, you know, adjusting to my new career as a developer.

332
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,000
I'm not like planning to like stay in Korea forever.

333
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,600
Like I don't know what's gonna happen.

334
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:53,600
Like you know, but at least I'm trying to like make my time here worth it.

335
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:59,600
And when I'm in Korea, like I try to take care of my grandma and spend more time with

336
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:00,600
her.

337
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:06,180
Because I can sort of see like how when a person gets old like they might feel like you know

338
00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:10,960
You can't really do a lot of things like she used to do a lot of housework

339
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:17,980
So a lot of chores or like shopping like, you know, like farming but now she can't do most of it

340
00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:19,980
so I guess one of my

341
00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:24,100
responsibilities or one of the things that I do for her is that

342
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,560
But just making sure that she has something to do.

343
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,560
It could be like housework.

344
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,620
But sometimes it's reading.

345
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:37,760
Sometimes it's coloring the drawing books.

346
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,200
Or taking care of flowers.

347
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,440
Phone call with my aunt.

348
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,660
All that stuff.

349
00:28:45,660 --> 00:28:52,400
I don't know how I can sort of connect it with my programming or coding practices yet.

350
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:55,680
with my programming or coding practices yet. But I don't know, I take a lot of videos of my grandma.

351
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,360
Just trying to appreciate daily times that I spend with her.

352
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,000
Yeah, that's very interesting. Like keeping them busy kind of a thing.

353
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,680
I mean, I sense that sometimes me and my mom, we do that for my grandma.

354
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:19,000
you know, hey, why don't you make that favorite dish that you know, my son, he loves something

355
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,160
or whatever. So then she'll be like, okay, let me do this. She's 88. She's also like

356
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:31,200
now feeling that kind of. And I think it's almost like, they are a little bit more homebound

357
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,680
and very trapped. And they are a generation of women who are always very busy and, you

358
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,640
know, like moving around doing the things that needed to be done and very responsible

359
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:45,000
and moving around doing the things that needed to be done and very responsible and no time to relax kind of generation

360
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:54,000
So yeah I mean I can sense that but does she enjoy these kind of exercises like the coloring and all that or like

361
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,000
Did you like discover it or like how did that happen?

362
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:08,720
I think like after she got sick, you know, because it was her brain like you know, it

363
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:18,640
was like a tumor in her brain. So I was thinking like what would be like a good you know exercise

364
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:27,280
for her or her brain. So I was thinking and then like I went to the bookstore and I saw

365
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,760
Like I went to the bookstore and I saw this like a coloring book

366
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:36,160
But it was only like flowers. So I thought okay. Well my grandma she likes flowers

367
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,120
Like why don't I just you know, why don't we try this?

368
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,560
so I gave it to her and I gave her all the color pencils and

369
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,240
Like she was so focused

370
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,360
Surprisingly, she was so focused on it

371
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,400
She was so focused on it.

372
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,000
And I think like…

373
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,000
And later, I asked her like,

374
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,100
why are you doing this?

375
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:55,200
Or why are you enjoying this?

376
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,500
And she told me that

377
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,800
she thought this was sort of like a homework.

378
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,200
She thought this was like a homework for me.

379
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,300
And she was doing like…

380
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:05,000
I don't know.

381
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,600
She thought she was helping me.

382
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,400
And I had to like…

383
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,000
Because I was constantly like taking pictures and videos.

384
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,600
She almost thought like,

385
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,400
oh I'm doing this for her.

386
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,000
You know?

387
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,500
She would just sit there for a few hours.

388
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,000
I'm doing this for her, you know?

389
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,560
She would just sit there for a few hours

390
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,560
and she wouldn't take a break

391
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,560
And that's why she got kind of exhausted

392
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,560
after that one book

393
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,960
I was trying to give her another book

394
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,160
and she was so exhausted

395
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,440
She was like, I'm not gonna do this

396
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,440
This hurts my back

397
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,200
So we told her, this is not an assignment

398
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,240
This is not a homework

399
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,240
We're just doing this for fun

400
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,240
But the funny thing is like

401
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,280
If this is not something valuable

402
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:43,040
But the funny thing is like, if this is not something like valuable, you know, like just for fun

403
00:31:43,940 --> 00:31:48,640
She acted as if like this is not like a reason to be motivated

404
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,900
So she was more motivated when this was like a very important task

405
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,560
so I'm just like kind of like faking it, you know, like I had to like encourage her in many ways and

406
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,840
So yeah, she's taking more breaks now

407
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,200
So yeah, she's taking more breaks now.

408
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,900
I'm like telling her not to do everything at once.

409
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,700
Like just, you know, color just one flower like today.

410
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,300
And like this another flower is for tomorrow.

411
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:15,900
Like you don't need to finish it now.

412
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:18,600
Like I have to like constantly remind her of that.

413
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,800
So that's kind of funny.

414
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:20,900
And she's like...

415
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:23,800
She actually has like a pretty good sense of colors.

416
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,600
So I'm very surprised with that.

417
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,100
And I'm glad that we like try that.

418
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,240
So I'm very surprised with that and I'm glad that we tried that.

419
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,240
And recently, I'm trying to make her exercise.

420
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,800
We just do a little ball game.

421
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,240
So I would just throw a ball and we would just keep throwing a ball to each other.

422
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:49,400
And yeah, I'm just trying a lot of different things that I can give her more energy.

423
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,280
Give her more energy.

424
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,400
Does she talk a lot about the past?

425
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,240
Like my grandma is constantly talking about the past

426
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,120
and her life as a child and her home.

427
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,440
And I don't know. Is that a common theme?

428
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,040
Yeah, it is.

429
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,520
She used to talk about it a lot more a few years ago.

430
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,880
But now, not much.

431
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,320
Maybe she doesn't remember it as clearly as before.

432
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,560
remember it as clearly as before. Because like when her cousins or her niece or nephews,

433
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:28,400
when they call her, it's sort of hard for her to remember who she is or who he is.

434
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:36,240
So yeah, but like five years ago, she talked a lot. Like she talked a lot about her past and

435
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,400
She went through like Korean War and everything and she was in the middle of that.

436
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,400
She remembered everything so clearly.

437
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:49,000
And I was taking a video art class in New York in my college.

438
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,400
So I actually made one video out of her story.

439
00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:03,000
So we would video chat for a few days and I would just write down the whole story that she said multiple times and organize it.

440
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:07,000
multiple times and organize it. And then I made that as my video art project.

441
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000
And it was really interesting.

442
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,000
It reminds me, there's an artist, she's a black artist from Britain.

443
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:20,000
And her grandmother and her have this kind of relationship, quite close,

444
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000
like how we are conversing about. And she did an art project where she would make

445
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,480
an art project where she would make her grandma cross stitch some kind of little sentences

446
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,760
and phrases and then the same thing like you know how you mentioned that it was very much

447
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,640
like a very like project oriented kind of thing and the focus. So when the artist moved

448
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:47,120
on to another project, the grandmother was almost like okay now but now what now that's

449
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,280
So that's very interesting.

450
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:58,080
I think you also mentioned in your notes that you were not so focused on home and family,

451
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,280
and then things kind of changed, I guess,

452
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,160
because of this incident and the medical incident and all.

453
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,720
But do you sense that,

454
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,920
I do recall that my pace and movement are very

455
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,480
different when I'm at home versus when I'm in a work environment.

456
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,540
different when I'm at home versus when I'm in a work environment.

457
00:35:16,540 --> 00:35:18,060
You have to walk slower,

458
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:20,980
you have to move around and navigate.

459
00:35:20,980 --> 00:35:23,700
You have to behave in a way that,

460
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:27,340
we have peers who are also the same age and of course,

461
00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:33,000
their lifestyles are fairly different and they're able to build it in a different way,

462
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,300
where there's a lot more time to focus and build your own space.

463
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:41,940
When I say space, I mean actual physical spaces within your homes.

464
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,840
own space and when I say space like I mean actual like physical spaces within

465
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,560
your homes right because you know you can build it exactly how you want

466
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,640
because you're not sharing it with someone of another generation almost

467
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,200
like curated in a way and but when you're not when you don't have that

468
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:59,920
kind of a when you don't have that possibility it you know you're moving in

469
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,880
a certain way even your navigation around the house and you're a theater

470
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,300
certain way even your navigation around the house and you're a theater person so

471
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:07,500
you'll understand that you know like you can't move furniture in a certain way

472
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:11,180
because it might affect an elder in the house or a child

473
00:36:11,180 --> 00:36:16,660
you know chairs are higher or lower made for them specifically so like just what

474
00:36:16,660 --> 00:36:20,260
is your like kind of movement around the house how does that affect like for

475
00:36:20,260 --> 00:36:24,060
example my mom is not letting me buy a cupboard for my electronic items

476
00:36:24,060 --> 00:36:26,640
because she's like oh my god there's so much stuff in the house and I don't want

477
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,260
Because she's like, oh my god, there's so much stuff in the house. I don't want another cupboard

478
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:33,020
So like do you have instances like that which are kind of affecting the way, you know, you're thinking about your work

479
00:36:33,020 --> 00:36:36,480
But it's you're not able to push it out or vice versa that you know

480
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,080
You're not allowing them to do something just because you need to you know, like I don't know just like just some kind of like

481
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,700
That's interesting. Um, well

482
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:47,140
Well, thankfully I have my own room

483
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:55,400
Totally. I changed my room's furniture like desk and chairs, all the drawers

484
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:02,600
A lot of furniture in my room, I just changed the whole thing like twice or three times

485
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,600
over the course of like almost like four years now

486
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,000
Yeah, and like my parents kind of like freak out and like they were like

487
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,800
Just leave it alone. Like why are you changing everything?

488
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Like why are you changing everything? It's just like a whole, you know, like don't move it around

489
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:23,600
It's just you know, a lot of furniture. So and the desk is really really heavy, too. I wasn't listening to them

490
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,360
I was just like this is my room. I have to make it a certain way to you know, focus better

491
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,680
I've been protecting my room. I guess I

492
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,780
Wouldn't put my stuff like in the living room or other places

493
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,800
So yeah, I just like try to keep everything in my room

494
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,920
I don't have a lot of things that would harm my grandma

495
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:50,900
But sometimes she would just come into my room and like try to clean up and she would usually just like wipe the floor

496
00:37:51,180 --> 00:37:53,340
You know, and I'm just like don't do it

497
00:37:53,340 --> 00:37:59,120
I would just have to tell her stop doing it and it's just like you can't you can't stop her

498
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,400
It's just like in her, you know, she she has to

499
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,880
her, you know, she has to...

500
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,280
She just got to find something to do.

501
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,880
So that's why I'm trying to give her other tasks,

502
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,800
you know, instead of like cleaning.

503
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,760
Because I don't want her like constantly move around

504
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:19,000
and like keep cleaning my room or, you know, other rooms.

505
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,040
Oh, but sorry, I never asked.

506
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,080
Is it your mom's mom or your dad's mom?

507
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,640
Oh, it's my mom's mom.

508
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,200
Yeah, I live with her since I was a baby.

509
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:31,500
mom's mom. Yeah, I live with her since I was a baby, my grandma. So we're just like super close.

510
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:37,100
I remember you had mentioned that in somewhere it was written that you know, okay, it's your mom who's the

511
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,920
primary carer, but I mean and you said that okay, I'm not even close to that kind of thing

512
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,360
but I think you still sense yourself as being an important person in the care of

513
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,800
care of a family member, in this case your grandmother.

514
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,800
Grandma management.

515
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:01,300
So, I don't know, just like tell us about her day and how you sometimes maybe,

516
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,100
I'm sure you're very consciously helping her in some ways.

517
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:06,100
And maybe not so consciously.

518
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:14,100
Yeah, my mom is a primary care and I try to help but not as much as her, obviously.

519
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:19,200
her obviously and I guess like part of me kind of feels bad about it and I try

520
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,600
to help more. I try to like balance it out when my mom has to go shopping or

521
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:30,840
you know go somewhere else then I would try to stay at home and working remotely

522
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:39,480
has been helping me very much. As long as I'm someone is at home my mom can kind

523
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,680
someone is at home, my mom can kind of go out and like, you know, do her business.

524
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:51,600
So yeah, I try to stay at home when I can. And when I have other plans, I

525
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:57,120
would sort of, you know, match with my mom. Like my grandma, she's usually fine. She

526
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:03,840
can like stay alone for like one or two hours. And as long as she has something

527
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000
for like one or two hours.

528
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,400
And as long as she has something to do,

529
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,300
either that's a book or like a drawing or coloring,

530
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,800
or sleeping, like it's okay.

531
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,200
But she often asks me, even when I'm at home,

532
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,200
she often asks me,

533
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:17,700
where's your mom?

534
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:21,000
Almost like every 10 minutes when she has nothing to do.

535
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:21,800
And she just like,

536
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,600
she feels like she has to clean like all the rooms.

537
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,700
And she keeps asking me like,

538
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:27,800
where's your mom?

539
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,800
Like every 10 minutes or 20 minutes.

540
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,680
all the rooms and she keeps asking me like where's your mom like every 10

541
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:37,240
minutes or 20 minutes so try to give her a book or you know some something to do

542
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,960
Care Of is a spin-off of Computational Mama's live coding stream called Coding

543
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,420
with Friends. Coding with Friends casually and simply claims spaces for

544
00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:53,640
women creators. The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of

545
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,640
for women creators. The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of

546
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,200
camaraderie, friendship and care. But after two seasons of coding with friends

547
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,280
it seemed crucial to extend these conversations in a pre-recorded format

548
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,920
where the invited guests can talk more intimately about their work, their lives

549
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,400
and their ideas of care.