Iterating Care with Kiel Danger Mutschelknaus

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Hi, welcome to Care Of. This is a short form podcast featuring conversations with creators,

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creative technologists about code, work and care. As I traverse ideas and realities of

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care in my life with first my grandparents and now my son, I recognize some shifts in

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the ways of thinking and working, differences in access available or afforded to me. And

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I can't help but wonder how care translates to others in the creator community. This podcast

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wonder how care translates to others in the creator community.

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This podcast is a simple attempt to open up, investigate,

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and document our practices from the lens of care.

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Mathematically, this care is directly

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proportional to time management.

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OK, so we are restarting.

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Let's see if this works.

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All right.

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I think you can hear me now, yes?

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Undoubtedly.

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Undoubtedly.

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How do you say that word?

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Yes.

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Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. How do you say that word?

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I need to share my parent relaxed with other creative coding.

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I will always be your number one hype woman.

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Okay, good. Good. I'm not used to talking this much.

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Like, I guess I'm out of shape.

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I do actually feel like, to me, the word care, I love that you're coming at this discussion with that word.

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And I think that's not the usual perspective that you will start with when it's, you know,

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in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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So, so there's all these different spaces of care to

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navigate.

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Welcome, Kiel, to our podcast. It's a short form interview

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podcast for creative technologist, at least for the

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season. And we're looking at ideas of code, work and care.

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It's called care of the podcast is basically to highlight the

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work of creative technologists from diverse multifaceted

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communities, make space for the process for talking about the

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from diverse, multifaceted communities,

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make space for talking about the process

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and or the act of coding rather than the output itself.

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And of course, to converse openly about care

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as a part of our lives

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and how it affects our work and workflow.

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This kind of hit me quite strongly, of course,

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post the birth of my son,

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because it changed workflow a lot based on his care.

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And that whole notion of being a creator

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and that whole notion of being a creator and being able to focus and things suddenly shifts

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and I think you and the past guest we had Kate Sicchio are the two people currently who are in

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sort of primary roles of being carers for children. So I think maybe there'll be some

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sort of common angst I'm sure we can talk about. So Kiel Mutschelknaus is a motion and generative

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talk about. So Kiel Mutschelknaus is a motion and generative designer from Maryland. Kiel's

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studio focuses around crafting generative tools to create bespoke typography, image

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and motion work. His coding project Space Type Generator is an open source tool that

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allows users to create their own kinetic type experiments. There are 14 variations to the

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There are 14 variations to the Space Type Generator, with more on the way.

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It's been used around the world, from everything from music videos to magazine covers and large-scale

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murals.

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Space Type Generator has been written about in It's Nice That, Page Magazine, Eye Magazine,

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The Verge, Itap, and Novum Magazine as well.

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Kiehl's clients include Apple, Spotify, Nike, The CW, New York Times, Panasonic, Adidas,

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Spotify, Nike, The CW, New York Times, Panasonic, Adidas, Ray-Ban and Bloomberg.

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He has had editorial work in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The New

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Yorker, MIT Technology Review, The Verge, Columbia Engineering and The New

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Republic. Wow, that's amazing. We are very very honored to have you on.

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It's like a truly amazing body of work that you have and I think nothing more

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a truly amazing body of work that you have.

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I think nothing more exciting than the space-type generator,

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I think, which has become this phenomenon around the world,

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and not just in the creative coding community, I think across.

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So perhaps you can talk to us a little bit about it,

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and then we can take the conversation further.

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Well, space-type generator is the name I've given to

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my whole learning practice of learning creative coding,

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my whole learning practice of learning creative coding.

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That's really how I got started.

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I just finished teaching at Mica,

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but I was a teacher at Mica.

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Through some of the teaching there,

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I really became enamored with the idea of learning coding.

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I taught myself some of the coding and first started in

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After Effects and the expression component of

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After Effects where you can plug code into your layers.

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compression component of After Effects where you can plug code into your layers.

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And that was really exciting to me.

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And so then from there, I translated it into processing and P5.js.

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And that whole world was just opened up and became really amazing.

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And so some of the things I was working with,

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I just found myself doing the same thing over and over again.

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And so automating them was definitely the next step.

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So I brought some of the stuff I was doing in After Effects into processing.

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So I brought some of the stuff I was doing in After Effects into processing,

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and I was just blown away how easy it was to iterate,

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and how nicely it handled all the things I needed it to do.

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It was like taking a tool like After Effects,

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which is huge and powerful and three-dimensional,

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and then getting rid of

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that environment and making your own environment.

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That became super exciting and super satisfying to iterate in,

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and became so much faster.

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and super satisfying to iterate in and became so much faster.

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And then it's like, you know, like, what else can I put a wave in?

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What else can I make move?

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What else can I interact with on the fly?

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And so from there, Space Type Generator was born as this kind of practice

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of creating these typographic tools that had a motion component to them.

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Three-dimensional, two-dimensional, it just became kind of a cascade

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of all these different iterations and ideas on what to do with it.

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cascade of all these different iterations and ideas on what to do with it.

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And then I had a lot of fun interacting with them.

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And so they initially lived only in processing.

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But you know,

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the interacting with it was so much fun and that became really a part of it.

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You know, part of,

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of the practice was how much fun that was that interaction,

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that satisfaction of like, you know,

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seeing things move depending on what sliders you're interacting with.

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So, so then yeah,

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depending on what sliders you're interacting with.

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So then, yeah, translating some of them into P5.js,

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just made sense to try and share it with other people.

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So yeah, it's like a huge learning practice and

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there's like 14 iterations and counting,

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and some of those early ones are super rough.

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I look back and shudder on some of the choices I made,

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but I don't know, there's something quirky about them.

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I made but I don't know there's something kind of quirky about them you

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know some of the odd choices I decided to solve problems I didn't really tackle

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you know some band-aid solutions that ended up looking pretty interesting so

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yeah they've got some kind of fun quirks to them. When I first encountered them I

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mean of course everyone is like very blown away by both the choices and the

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both the choices and the sort of really beautiful forms that you've kind of added to it.

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And, you know, I know, I mean, you may feel like you shudder,

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but like even those simple forms which have that little bit of like algorithmic,

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mathematical flow to them are, I think, very outside of the imagination of someone who's sort of not,

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who's never done that kind of work before.

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And I think that's where I encountered it.

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And then, of course, later I started learning code.

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I was like, oh, this is possible.

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that's where I encountered it and then later I started learning code and I was like,

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oh, this is possible.

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And just like you, I come from a graphics background.

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And at some point I was like, okay,

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I think I don't want to sketch out these things anymore.

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I just want to look at how P5 can help me take the practice forward.

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So, I mean, that's very exciting to see that how you've been able to sort of bring that in.

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able to bring that in.

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But tell us, was it like,

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did you start using STG specifically with students,

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or was it just like you were playing around with it,

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and it evolved more towards your work,

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and how did it get public in that sense?

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Yeah. Well, I was teaching students

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some motion tracking demo in After Effects.

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So we were placing typography in footage that we had shot on our iPhones,

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footage that we had shot on our iPhones. And After Effects has this crazy, beautiful, powerful

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motion tracking system that's super slick and clean if you get the right footage. So

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that's already magic.

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So then I found myself playing and talking with students about how to place flat typography

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graphics at different angles. And then from there, it became like, well, what if these

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became like, well, what if these angles weren't so flat and 90 degrees to each

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other, but actually curved around a central point and well, that's like a

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cylinder, you know, if you add enough flat areas around a center point.

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And so then from there, yeah, it was like, well, how can I make these

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cylinders much quicker, you know, like rather than doing the math and typing

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each of the rotation values in individually, can I automate that?

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values in individually, can I automate that? And so that's where the expressions came in.

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And, um, you know, I'm, I'm really need quick iterations with my tools. So doing something

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in After Effects that like slowed me down at all was just a huge bummer. You know, I

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need to make, and I need to be able to see what I'm doing quicker. You know, otherwise

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I'm just, you're just waiting for render times and that can just really kill your momentum.

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So yeah, so there, you know, the jump from those expressions into processing, I'd played

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a little bit with processing and have always really loved it.

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You know, like the idea of a loop, you know, as simple as it is, is like so profound to

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me still that you just take like one thing, you do it over and over again, and then you

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make a tiny little change in that and like just the whole world opens.

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I mean, it's like all motion then.

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So that's still for me, it's very magical.

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still for me is very magical. So yeah, the jump from teaching the students or

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experimenting with the students, it wasn't like an exact demo, you know, we

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were kind of figuring it out together. So making that jump into processing and

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figuring out like what variables and layers and parameters, how that would

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equate to variables you could create and manipulate inside the processing loop.

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That's where it really became, you know, exciting. And then changing those

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loop. That's where it really became exciting. And then changing those values on the fly,

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having sliders inside of the animation that then you could interact with. That's where

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it became like, yeah, this needs to kind of be out there. This needs to be shared. People

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need to be able to experiment. And I wanted to see what people would do with it, which

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has also become this really exciting collaboration. You're putting something out there, seeing

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what they do is super satisfying.

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that you're putting something out there,

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seeing what they do is super satisfying.

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So in that context,

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I mean, I think maybe I'm interested to learn more about,

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let's call it the origin story of STG in that sense.

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So once you started building it out,

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how are you putting it out there?

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Were you sharing it with other motion designers,

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or was it more like just a student community?

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designers or was it more like just kind of a student community or how was how

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were you kind of like I would say I don't know how to explain but like you

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know like how do you like expose your kid to the world around you so now like

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STG is your kid but so how are you doing that in that sense?

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Well I guess I was posting lots of videos and photos of that kid, my STG kid on

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on Instagram. And I think that's primarily where most people got excited for it, was

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seeing it on Instagram. And I was lucky enough early on, there's an agency in Baltimore called

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Post Typography. And that's got some MICA alums, MICA grad alums at the, you know, as

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founders of it. And they saw some of it and, you know, like we've started talking pretty

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talking pretty early on in the development of STG. Maybe there are only like two or three

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variations of it out. So I don't know if this is 2018 or something. And they had a client

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that they wanted to see if they could make something for them with. So that for me was

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like also like a very, you know, exponential growth after that was like having them like

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having actual designers, you know, not, you know, people just like, Oh, this is a cool

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designers, not people just like,

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oh, this is a cool thing I found on the internet,

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but a real agency get in there and hack the tools themselves,

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play, do some combinations and some offsets

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that I wouldn't have thought of.

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They're using typographic forms as pattern making within it.

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Then they even rendered some stuff out and mock some stuff up in Photoshop.

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Like, hey, what if you did this?

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What if you added these?

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Photoshop. Like, Hey, what if you did this? What if you added these? And so that for me

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was like super exciting. So, I mean, I think about the origin point. There's like the moment

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where I brought it into processing from After Effects and a processing that for me was like

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a real pivotal moment. And then this relationship with post typography to like have these designers

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ask me, what if me experiment with those, what ifs, pitch them something back. I mean,

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pitch them something back. I mean that for me, that bouncing back and forth for me

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that really got me excited, really helped me see the potential for maybe this

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isn't just like a cute thing on the internet. You know like maybe this can

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also lend itself to like identity systems, motion systems, commercial

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client systems. So for there, you know, like it was it was like a let's keep

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pushing this, you know, let's keep experimenting and see what's possible.

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keep pushing this, you know, let's keep experimenting and see what's possible.

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So are many of the variations like things that kind of built over, you know, projects that you

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were on or was it just you were like learning something and it just got added on? How does

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that process come about for you? I mean it's a mixture of both, you know, sometimes it's

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something I'm doing with a client and like I will, you know, I won't take like an exact

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translation of it but there will be like a seed in there that I see that I'd be like, oh this could

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be like a seed in there that I see that I'd be like, oh, this could be like a fun

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tool for people to play with. So sometimes that is the genesis.

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Other times it'll just be kind of something I'm thinking of as I'm out,

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you know, away from the computer, just thinking like, oh yeah,

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that would be kind of cool.

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Or sometimes when I am looking for inspiration on the internet,

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I'm like going pretty quick. And if something catches my eye,

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I try to like not go back and look at it.

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I try to like keep going and like, just think back,

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like not go back and look at it. I try to like keep going and and like just think back like what was it

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that I saw at a glance that I think was really interesting in my mind and then try and recreate

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that rather than the actual thing. And like the idea of combining this graphic design and code,

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I mean there's it's so fruitful you know like you can take any sort of graphic design tool or trope

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or foundation and reinterpret it with code.

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There's a whole new world there to experiment with.

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I did a huge iteration on Bezier paths and Bezier curves and stuff.

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For me, that was six months.

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It continues to be just really fruitful exploration.

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Because I've always loved those paths.

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Like an illustrator, those have spoken to me,

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those vectors and stuff.

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love those paths, you know, like an illustrator, those like have spoken to me, those vectors

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and stuff. Or like walk cycles, you know, that's something I was really into when I

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was getting into motion graphics that provided like loads of experimentation that I still

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want to go back to. So I don't know exactly where these all come from, but you know, like

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at this point they're kind of like weaving in and out of each other, you know, like I'll

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do something, you know, a month ago and then an editorial project will come my way and

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and then an editorial project will come my way.

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And I'll be like, oh, but what if I did this?

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What if I took this generator I made?

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What if I recreated this in Blender?

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What if I use this approach, these graphics

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in this generator?

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So right now, they're really weaving in and out

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of each other in a really beautiful way.

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It's been very helpful.

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I also was going through one of your talks

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with Fresh Produce.

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fresh produce. So that was really interesting because I think and I think

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in both places even your LT you talked the the people who invited you kind of

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had some sort of past with you which was really interesting because you know they

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they gave a very personal introduction about you and and the way like the way

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you're thinking and you know like you're sort of I and that's what I feel about

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the project also that there's this you know you're very consistently able to

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And that's what I feel about the project also,

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that there's this, you know,

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you're very consistently able to give to it,

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like almost like watering a plant and like,

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you know, caring for it.

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And I really love that about this project,

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but how do you keep yourself excited about it all the time?

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And how do you read, like,

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how do you bring that focus back to the generators?

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What is interesting for me to like,

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I'd like to know about.

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I'm always drawn to this idea that objects in motion

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tend to stay in motion.

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drawn to this idea that objects in motion tend to stay in motion. So, you know, I know

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if I slow down on something, it's really hard to start back up. So if I like kind of keep

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iterating and keep pushing on things, it's like easier to keep them going. And so that's

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what I try and do is like, you know, I try and keep iterating on something, trying to

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keep experimenting, try to keep that output going forward. And that's almost, you know,

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forward. And that's almost been a little bit of a detriment because it's,

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I guess it's allowed me to be really messy, you know? So like the code,

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when I look back on it, it's very messy. You know,

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some of those choices earlier on were very messy.

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And I know there's like a whole world to explore and cleaning that up. You know,

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I'd love to do that.

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I would love to go back and like from the very first STG cylinder iteration,

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rebuild it all cleaner, nicer, more effective, more efficient.

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rebuild it all cleaner, nicer, more effective, more efficient. I know people would love that,

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trying to figure out this saving. I mean, like I said, there's some quirk in there,

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and if I clean it up too much, I think it loses some of that. So I mean, I do just kind of tend

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to learn quickly and allow things to break. And so I guess I've kept the momentum going

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I've kept the momentum going just by really allowing things to pass by me.

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When I look back,

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I have a Google Photos that backs up all of these videos.

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Sometimes I just go back and look back on all these iterations I've done and I've made.

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Sometimes I look back and I think,

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oh, that was really exciting,

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I should return to that.

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But there's always this ability that I embrace to let things pass by,

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like ability that I embrace to let things pass by, you know, like let some of these

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experiments kind of fade away or die or go quickly, which I don't know if that's a good

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thing or a bad thing. I mean, it keeps the momentum going, but yeah, it churns through

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content pretty quickly. And that maybe is a little bit of a bummer. I wonder if now

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that I'm full-time contract work, if I can like kind of figure out maybe a better way

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a better way to archive that or a cleaner way,

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a more efficient way to share some of those.

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When you speak about all this and I love this kind of comparison

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you keep making back to these professional softwares

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because I can see that in my own practice

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because that's where I also started with Photoshop and Illustrator,

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not Motion and that whole notion of

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really quickly mastering that tool to the point where you feel like,

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like notion of like really like quickly mastering that tool to the point where you know you

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feel like okay you can quite easily visualize something even if it's just a rough few things

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and then turn it out. But is that and I've said I kind of recall you said something about

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this in one of your talks right. So how is it like for me now when I'm thinking about

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code or building like a little visualization in code I don't think that process is the

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a little visualization and code. I don't think that process is the same. I don't know how that

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is for you. Can you maybe elaborate about it a bit? Yeah, I love that. I think the mastering of

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the tools is kind of something I've been trying to force myself to get over a little bit. You know,

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like when I came out of undergrad, I thought like, you know, every tool you come across,

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Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, like you've got to master it. You know, like if you want to create

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anything fruitful, you have to be the master of that domain. And I know there's like, there's

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that domain. And I know there's definitely beauty in mastering something,

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but there's also something that gets lost, I think,

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when you are a master of something. There's less surprises,

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there's less excitement, you make less mistakes.

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And when I was in undergrad doing a BA in art, it was like,

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the only time I made anything interesting was when I made mistakes, you know,

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like pushing paint around a canvas until you accidentally created something

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beautiful. That was like, you know, how the only way I found success.

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you accidentally created something beautiful.

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That was like, you know, how the only way I found success.

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So, so being a master I have found is really overrated.

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And for me now it's more about the learning and like allowing yourself to not get

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frightened off of this new territory.

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And it's kind of something I have to keep coming back to, you know,

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like whenever I find myself doing too many of the same tricks and creative

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coding, I keep thinking like, okay, well, what's the new thing, you know,

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like what's the next learning step I need to take.

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what's the new thing? What's the next learning step I need to take? And for me right now,

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my list of things I need to learn is daunting. It's epic. It's huge. So I need to really

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hone down because I do find myself some weeks just being like, I know how to do this. I'll

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just keep cooking on this.

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I think when I first came out of undergrad, I thought, okay, well, I'm going to do print.

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I think when I first came out of undergrad, I thought,

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okay, well, I'm going to do prints.

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I do some illustration and so that's what I'm going to do my entire life.

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The web scared me,

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motion scared me, 3D scared me.

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All these things scared me just because I didn't know anything.

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Now, I'm everyday trying to get rid of that fear and

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embrace that curiosity and keep learning.

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You were talking about how to

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maybe solve some of these things in your head through code,

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what, you know, like how to iterate or how to like maybe solve some of these things in

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your head through code or like what tool to use. And that's, you know, something I still

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struggle with. You know, I have an editorial project I'm doing right now where I did start

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building it in code and like it was, it could have worked, it would have taken me forever.

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It didn't make any sense. So I swapped to Blender. So then like I lost all this work and this

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all this work and this progress.

382
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And luckily for me, that doesn't happen too often.

383
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Usually I'm able to like figure out within a timeframe, what tool makes sense,

384
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whether it's an After Effects or a processing or P5 or, you know, like

385
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what environment to bring it into.

386
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Even thinking in code, I think has been just super helpful, even in outside of

387
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code things, you know, like building, building a visual thing, whether it's

388
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visual thing, whether it's an After Effects rig or an Illustrator drawing,

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building it smartly is like so important. You know, like any,

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anytime I find myself doing a band-aid solution,

391
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like a real quick fix that like leaves like some holes or like,

392
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isn't the right way to do it. I always find it bites me. You know,

393
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it's always like,

394
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it always comes back to haunt you and then pretty soon there's band-aids on

395
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band-aids on band-aids and, and that's like an encoding, but you know,

396
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,140
on band-aids on band-aids and that's like an encoding but you know same with

397
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like After Effects you know like you set something in stone or like you set some

398
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sort of motion parameter the way you think it needs to be and then you have

399
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like a change come or something breaks and you like have to reconstruct

400
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everything so yeah. I quite understand this because sometimes especially when

401
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,400
when you're trying like these kind of I'll say mixed workflows because you're

402
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,040
like these kind of, I'll say mixed workflows,

403
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because you're moving in from like CP5 into processing

404
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and back to illustrator or after effects.

405
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So I mean, this is something that I find very commonly

406
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in my practice as well, that there's sometimes no ready

407
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format to like look up to, and then you just get so,

408
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like, okay, is this decision that I'm taking,

409
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is it correct or not?

410
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And then that bandaging starts, you know,

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like, because the clients are really, okay,

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I'm taking is it correct or not and then that bandaging starts, you know, like

413
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because the clients are really okay, where is this work, you know, give us the

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work. So I get that it's very interesting. I really like what you said about the

415
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,720
learning, like I also feel like I am only able to move forward if there's some

416
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learning involved. But is this something, is that, has that changed as a practice

417
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for you since you've become a father or was it like, did you start coding before

418
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you were a parent? Yeah, definitely. I, when did I start coding? I think I

419
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coding before you were a parent?

420
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Yeah, definitely.

421
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I, when did I start coding?

422
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I think I started a little bit, like very light.

423
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I just found, like somebody told,

424
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like somebody pointed at like the bar

425
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at the bottom of an iMac and they're like,

426
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oh, that's processing.

427
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And I was like, what is processing?

428
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And I think that was like my first year

429
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adjunct teaching in Michigan.

430
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And like, they're like, oh, it's code that makes visuals.

431
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And for me, it was just like, what?

432
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You know, like for me, that was like so exciting already.

433
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And I knew I needed to get involved.

434
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was just like, what?

435
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For me, that was so exciting already and I knew I needed to get involved.

436
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,320
That was before, I think it was when I was very first married,

437
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,200
so it was maybe 10 years ago,

438
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about 10 years ago, and so before I had kids.

439
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,280
Really, once I became a father,

440
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,800
I don't know, maybe there is a correlation here.

441
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,080
But that is when I started learning coding.

442
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,060
But that is when I started learning coding.

443
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Maybe it was mentally something there that switched,

444
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that I embraced the curiosity that children have of learning and experimenting.

445
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I don't know, maybe subconsciously I did.

446
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:43,240
But I was really playing around with coding super briefly,

447
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,760
watching a couple of videos,

448
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,760
reading Daniel Schiffman's book, Learning Processing.

449
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That was maybe right around when my first child was born, Jude.

450
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:54,720
And that was like maybe right around when my first child was born, Jude, and he is now

451
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,760
seven years old. So seven years ago, I think is when I first started playing around with

452
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,440
it more. And also, I guess in conjunction with this, I became a father right when I

453
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,400
started teaching at Maryland Institute College of Art. Yeah, so that was seven years ago.

454
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,840
And so I had a kid the first year I was teaching there. And teaching at MICA was a super profound

455
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,680
teaching at Micah was a super profound experience for me and really, I think, did do that teaching

456
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:23,040
thing. I think there's this kind of trope about teachers learning more than they teach their

457
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,240
students, which that's a thousand percent my experience. I didn't teach my students anything.

458
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:36,960
I taught us together way more than I ever thought. So I learned a ton. And so I think maybe in

459
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,880
And so I think maybe in conjunction with that,

460
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,860
there was like the then tackling generative,

461
00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:42,800
tackling coding, tackling motion.

462
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,080
I really got into motion at that point.

463
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,860
And so all of that maybe came together

464
00:25:47,860 --> 00:25:49,760
as I started to have kids,

465
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,160
as I started to slow down a little bit.

466
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,400
I always need, I feel like,

467
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,080
just chunks of time to work on things.

468
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,760
Like I need a chunk of time to do this illustration.

469
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040
I need like a four hour stretch to do this.

470
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,500
And I still struggle with that.

471
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,680
illustration. I need like a four hour stretch to do this. I and I still

472
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,960
struggle with that. But maybe the smaller sections, you know, the half hour

473
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,120
windows you get when you're a parent, you know, those smaller windows or like

474
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,920
holding a baby while you also have your phone and watching Daniel Shifman

475
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:24,600
YouTube videos, you know, like, oh yeah, yeah, sleeping child, your earbuds on as

476
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,280
you're like kind of being like, don't wake up. I need to learn this. So maybe

477
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,280
on as you're like, kind of being like, don't wake up, I need to learn this.

478
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,440
So maybe that like also kind of interjected a little bit of

479
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,680
fuel to this like kind of learning aspect.

480
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,760
That chunk of time which you are speaking of, like, you know,

481
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,120
specifically when you're in design, you know, things have to be tweaked just so

482
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,480
and they just end up taking four hours, you know, even the whole day.

483
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,640
And then suddenly here with hit of play and then one random function,

484
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,840
you're getting a new kind of response every time.

485
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,880
and then one random function, you're getting a new kind of response every time.

486
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,840
And then you're like, okay, what the hell have we been doing in Adobe?

487
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,960
So I really like I can sort of relate to that.

488
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,920
So maybe we'll move a little bit more into your, let's say a little bit into your home

489
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:14,080
and care kind of sort of section, because we also like keeping in mind your time.

490
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,920
I know you have three kids, and I think you mentioned one of their names.

491
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,620
your time. I know you have three kids and I think you mentioned one of their names.

492
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:22,020
Let us know if you want to like bleep that out later. And so is your partner

493
00:27:22,020 --> 00:27:27,680
also from sort of creative sphere or is she from a different kind of a background?

494
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,580
No, she's not. She's actually comes from a, she got a Master's of Social

495
00:27:33,580 --> 00:27:38,840
Work. So started working in like kind of a contracting, helping out social

496
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,160
kind of the contracting, helping out social programs out in the DC area.

497
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,280
Organizations will get awarded money from government grants and stuff and

498
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,160
she'll help them execute. So no, not creative at all, but her project

499
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,800
management approach has been like so helpful for me. You know, so she's helped

500
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,040
me be organized and track hours and like really take my business practice to the

501
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,160
next step because like you know that's what she does is she deals with

502
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,560
next step. Because that's what she does, is she deals with contractors and freelancers

503
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:11,360
and stuff. And so that has been profoundly helpful. She's not in the creative field,

504
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,120
but she's got a very practical mind that has been super helpful for me.

505
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:20,840
So yeah, we've got three kids, a seven-year-old son, a five-year-old daughter, and then a

506
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:26,680
three-year-old son. So seven, five, three. And yeah, they've been a blast. But as you

507
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,160
Yeah, they've been a blast.

508
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,160
But as you can attest, they're time consuming to the max.

509
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,160
You're both working.

510
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,240
So do you guys have some grandparenting support

511
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:35,800
happening?

512
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,520
Or is that something that they're too far away?

513
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,440
Or how does that work in your world?

514
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,040
For us, I have my mom here.

515
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:43,540
Definitely.

516
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:45,920
We do have a nanny that comes.

517
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,840
So we have a nanny that will watch them.

518
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,040
But three is still a handful.

519
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,920
And they've started this progress

520
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,100
but three is still a handful.

521
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:53,700
And they've started this progress into schooling,

522
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:56,280
which has been amazing.

523
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,460
Eric and I still look at each other and we're like,

524
00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:59,860
they do this for free?

525
00:28:59,860 --> 00:29:02,460
You get to send them to school and they learn

526
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:05,580
and they feed them and then they come back at 4.30?

527
00:29:05,580 --> 00:29:06,460
That's incredible.

528
00:29:06,460 --> 00:29:08,620
And we don't have to, I guess we pay taxes or whatever.

529
00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:11,500
But that whole thing has just really been a blessing.

530
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,380
But you mentioned this online learning thing.

531
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:16,540
When our oldest did start school,

532
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:19,120
in this online learning thing when our oldest did start school, we tried to do the Zoom thing,

533
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:25,440
but it was his first experience in kindergarten, in school. It was a disaster. So we homeschooled,

534
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,400
you know, and we never thought we would be in that situation. We were not the type of people

535
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,880
that would think, well, let's homeschool. You know, that seems like an overwhelming, daunting task.

536
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,880
And it was, you know, but, you know, our son was just like not getting any of the support. He was

537
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,840
It was, but our son was just not getting any of the support.

538
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,320
He was not tuning in.

539
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,600
And there's something, I just think,

540
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,560
kind of really dark about having a kindergartner

541
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,160
have to sit out and watch the screens,

542
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,440
and then for a break, they're also going on a screen.

543
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,740
And I don't have anything against screens.

544
00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:58,840
I know we're all doing that, we all need to do that.

545
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,160
He's got this energy where he doesn't wanna be doing that.

546
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,360
So forcing him to do that was kind of tough for us.

547
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000
where he doesn't want to be doing that.

548
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000
So forcing him to do that was kind of tough for us.

549
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,000
So we homeschooled and yeah, that was kind of a crazy commitment.

550
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Yeah, yeah. I mean, even with online, that was something that I observed that I had to be sitting with the kid

551
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,000
because obviously he'll run away.

552
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,000
And then that, I mean, what's the point? Like, then I may as well do it myself.

553
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,000
And then homework you have to do yourself.

554
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,480
Like now I already like the teachers like,

555
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,880
hey, we've already done these sections.

556
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,480
Why is your kid so not,

557
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,600
I was like, you were not with him.

558
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,620
So I couldn't, I couldn't teach him this.

559
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:36,600
But yeah, I totally understand that.

560
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,220
So like, I also noticed that at

561
00:30:39,220 --> 00:30:42,560
least now my husband's moved to Netherlands.

562
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,660
But before, I think in the first sort of lockdown,

563
00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:48,180
which is really tough in India,

564
00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:52,440
we would kind of like relay race with the kid.

565
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,280
We would kind of like relay race with the kid.

566
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,240
Like if we had to take Zoom calls and also like was that similar for you guys?

567
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,040
How did you guys manage that insane time?

568
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,480
Yeah, I mean it was just bouncing back and forth with them.

569
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:09,400
Luckily our nanny was able to kind of quarantine with us during that first two years or whatever.

570
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,240
She just took it very seriously.

571
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,440
She, you know, had her own place and she would come here.

572
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,440
her own place and she would come here.

573
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,000
And so we were like very, you know,

574
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,720
we were respectful to each other and not getting COVID.

575
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,240
And so we had her support, but yeah.

576
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,240
So Eric and I both would work from home.

577
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,080
We still primarily do.

578
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,400
She just started going back into the office,

579
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,160
but yeah, if somebody had a call,

580
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,880
if I had a call, if she had a call,

581
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,360
if one of us had a deadline, yeah, it was a relay.

582
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,200
You're right.

583
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,560
Handing them back and forth, you know,

584
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,560
like handing off these responsibilities,

585
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,440
whether it was at homeschooling

586
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,680
handing them back and forth,

587
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,600
like handing off these responsibilities,

588
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,480
whether it was at homeschooling

589
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,120
or whether it's like an evening

590
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,000
where one of us does have a deadline

591
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,520
or needs to run a kid to an appointment

592
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,760
or make dinner or whatever, or just occupy them.

593
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,840
We definitely have done this handing off back and forth.

594
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,080
And she's got lots of calls.

595
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,180
She's always talking on the phone,

596
00:32:01,180 --> 00:32:04,000
which I don't know how she exists in that way.

597
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,440
always talking on the phone, which like, I don't know how she exists in that way.

598
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,360
I'm like so excited to just like hunker down in my little processing sketches

599
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,320
and my After Effects files, but to like, you know, have to be on that much and

600
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:13,760
perform that much is overwhelming.

601
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:22,360
So and then within that time, like how did you kind of, I know that because you were teaching, it must have been online as well.

602
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:29,920
And how did you kind of balance, because I do remember that you did a fair number of variations of STG at that time.

603
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,840
balance, because I do remember that you did a fair number of variations of STG at that time.

604
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,480
So like, how were you like, what was that thought going on in your mind? Why were you doing it?

605
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,600
Like, was it like just...

606
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:41,280
Well, that first year of COVID, I was actually on sabbatical. So like, I think I really lucked

607
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,480
out there. So I had a year off. And I think that's how we were able to do everything was

608
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,960
like the fact that I didn't have to go into Baltimore a couple, two, three days a week,

609
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200
going to Baltimore a couple, two, three days a week,

610
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:52,920
you know, was really helpful.

611
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,120
Well, actually, I wouldn't have, right?

612
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,040
It would have been online.

613
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,320
But even that whole, you know, like that's a whole day,

614
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,280
even if you're not on the screen the whole time,

615
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,520
it's like loads of like prep work and stuff.

616
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,160
And so that really helped us.

617
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,880
But like balancing, you know, client work and contract work

618
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,460
and then STG and those generators,

619
00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:11,600
I mean, it was a lot of doing it in the evenings,

620
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,420
you know, getting the kids down,

621
00:33:13,420 --> 00:33:15,360
having something to eat with Erica,

622
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,080
putting on some Netflix and me just like

623
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,400
getting the kids down, having something to eat with Erica,

624
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,640
putting on some Netflix and me just cracking open

625
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,120
my laptop and iterating and doing it.

626
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,040
And there was a moment where, I don't know,

627
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,960
through some sort of wild confluence of timelines,

628
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,400
I was able to have some really nice separations

629
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,560
of short-term projects, long-term projects,

630
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,080
constant projects, and I was forcing myself

631
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,920
to try and do two or three posts a week on Instagram.

632
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,840
And I was forcing myself to try and do like two or three posts a week on Instagram.

633
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,520
And that's something I'd love to get back to.

634
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,120
And that was really helpful to me.

635
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,400
You know, like I wasn't like trying to chase this social media, um, fame or

636
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,840
influence, but you know, like the momentum of having to do that, you know, like

637
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,240
then you've got to like, there's so many things, fun things to document, like

638
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,640
mistakes you make, you interacting with the code, you making the code, actual

639
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,480
making the code, actual final outputs, you know, there's so many exciting things to document

640
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,480
that way.

641
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,380
And so I think that like kind of allowed me to like kind of keep exploring it on a number

642
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:12,920
of different fronts, whether it was ones that I'm going to share that people are going to

643
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,480
use, whether it's ones that are just for research and development on my end.

644
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,720
I really like that you said that you would just put on Netflix and then two of you like

645
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:23,480
kind of sit together while working.

646
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,160
So how has CAIR been for you through this?

647
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,120
How has care been for you through this?

648
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,520
And I know especially because like when we were figuring out a timeline,

649
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,920
you said that one of your kids and Erica also kind of had COVID.

650
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,960
And how have those things been for you in there?

651
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,680
And like, how do you guys, how are you managing all of that?

652
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,800
Yeah, that was like a tough week.

653
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:50,520
And that was maybe like one of the most intense weeks of my life in terms of fatherhood and career workload.

654
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,760
fatherhood and career workload.

655
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,900
She got COVID and somehow through some magic,

656
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:56,340
she was the only one that got it.

657
00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:58,520
We do have family that's close and she was

658
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,640
able to stay in their basement for a week.

659
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:01,980
Then at that moment,

660
00:35:01,980 --> 00:35:07,620
I happened to have two or three projects really catch on fire and have to do

661
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:11,140
these development for generators and

662
00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:15,100
some motion work that I usually have and some editorial work.

663
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,500
They all just came to a head and it was actually

664
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,480
motion work that I usually have and some editorial work.

665
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,000
They all just kind of came to a head.

666
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,480
It was actually a really horrific week.

667
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,600
I don't know how I managed it.

668
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,600
It was just not a lot of sleep.

669
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:28,040
It was getting up super early so that I could run kids to school and then get kids from

670
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:34,160
school and then do dinners in the evening and then put them down and then continue work

671
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,560
in the evening and then do it all over again.

672
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,320
again. You know, I mentioned those like kind of timelines like lining up nicely

673
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,080
sometimes. This time they did not line up. You know, it's like I see all of these

674
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,800
as like waves, you know, like you send a project off and then the client does

675
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,240
feedback. So like your work dips a little bit and you can do other things and

676
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:57,400
maybe another wave fits in there. But this time these waves are just like

677
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,380
cresting and it was like overwhelming. So that was a really bummer time and I

678
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:05,480
think if I had to operate on that, you know, for an extended period of time I

679
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,220
So that was a really bummer time and I think if I had to operate on that, you know, for an extended period of time

680
00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:10,200
I don't think I would have I would have I would have crashed pretty hard. But yeah, it was a real tough week

681
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,000
I really wanted to know like how do your children respond specifically to

682
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,760
STG and and that very beautiful walker that you've made with the you know, those like generative

683
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,740
Walking like that parade kind of thing big how do they feel especially the ones who can interact with it?

684
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,800
the ones who can interact with it maybe like have some sense of mouse and keyboard.

685
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,000
They do think they're really fun.

686
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,400
You know, like if there's like an orbit control on it or something, I can just give them the

687
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,680
mouse and they will like click around and like whip around whatever 3D thing I'm making

688
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,040
like over and over again.

689
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,080
So they do like when they come in, you know, sometimes they'll like have to ask me questions

690
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,760
and I'll see their eyes just like come over to the screen and they'll just like kind of

691
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,800
stare at what they're doing.

692
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,000
just like come over to the screen and they'll just like kind of stare at what they're doing.

693
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,920
And, you know, we've come across stuff out in the public where they're like, did you do that?

694
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,560
And I'll be like, no, I didn't do that. I didn't do everything that moves. It is really fun to see

695
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:06,320
them interact with it. And, and, and my son, my oldest, he does want to get into coding. You know,

696
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,800
he's got this Sphero robot thing. They're like these orbs that like you can program to drive

697
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,960
different ways. So we've spent several times, you know, like trying to figure out how to like

698
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,680
to drive different ways.

699
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,600
So we've spent several times, you know,

700
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,360
like trying to figure out how to like do obstacle courses

701
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,200
with those.

702
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,660
It's so exciting for them to be immersed in that stuff,

703
00:37:21,660 --> 00:37:23,240
like, you know, like a second language

704
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,820
or like a foreign language so early in their schooling,

705
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:28,680
you know, or in the toys they're interacting with.

706
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,720
So it makes me super excited for like,

707
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,160
once he is even a little bit older for us to like,

708
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,120
kind of really bond over that, or even like, you know,

709
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,240
that way of thinking, you know, loops and systems

710
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:43,280
that way of thinking, loops and systems and if-elses and all these environments or structures

711
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,960
in which they can learn, I think is really exciting.

712
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:53,240
That's very interesting to see how they respond to your work and ask you those different questions.

713
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:59,480
Not yet with Yugen, my son, but his cousin, my niece, she's about eight, and she's also

714
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,920
started Scratch in class.

715
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,600
scratch in class. So, and I guess her parents have explained to her that I do something

716
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,080
related to coding. So she has all these like, so what do you do? Like, you know, I can also

717
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,220
code and then she made a birthday card for you again, but she made it in scratch because

718
00:38:14,220 --> 00:38:19,640
she knows that I will be impressed by it. So sweet. I was like, okay, that means there's

719
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,640
something to this, you know, that there's this little charm about coding that even young

720
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,920
people are sort of really responding to in some way. So that's exciting.

721
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,000
are sort of really responding to in some way. So that's exciting. Yeah.

722
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:35,080
Yeah. I mean for them so much stuff is digital, you know, and like their media and their culture

723
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,640
and you know, like Jude was talking to me about hacking the other day. He's like, can

724
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,560
you hack it? You know, and I was like, no, I can't hack. But he's, you know, he's watching

725
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,520
stuff that is all about kind of interacting with the digital world and like how you do

726
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,560
that. And so I think he sees coding as just like, you know, something that's natural.

727
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,600
how you do that. And so I think he sees coding as just like, you know, something that's natural.

728
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,880
Whereas, you know, for me, it's still kind of magic, you know, like the idea of programming

729
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,040
and hardware and software and like how those all work together still for me is like, gets

730
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,320
me going and just kind of like, how cool it is.

731
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,400
Yeah, I mean, that's, you're so right. It's so natural to them. And, and I think those

732
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,840
workflows, even with younger artists whom we work with, I find that they would prefer

733
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,360
work with, I find that they would prefer to draw on an iPad over, you know, like a tablet

734
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,720
and probably like a generation ago, like by hand.

735
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:26,260
And I think I really love what you've written specifically about holding a sick kid and,

736
00:39:26,260 --> 00:39:31,760
you know, like trying to get one to sleep and just to like, how you manage all of it

737
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,320
and you know, like, especially that little sentence you said about like, you know, this

738
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,280
kind of ambition is buzzing and you know, so how do you like, how do you kind of manage

739
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,280
all of that?

740
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,640
this kind of ambition is buzzing and you know, so how do you like, how do you kind of manage all of that?

741
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:47,840
Oh man, earlier on, like when I, even when I just had one kid, we, my partner and I always talk about how like the first kid is the hardest kid.

742
00:39:47,840 --> 00:40:05,480
Like one kid is the hardest kid. And then you, then after that, you've got the infrastructure in place. And so I remember, you know, early on, when I was an early father, I did have this ambition, like buzzing, this is before like STG, and maybe some of my recent contracting or freelancing success, which is like really kind of helped sustain me.

743
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,840
maybe some of my recent contracting or freelancing success,

744
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,520
which is like really kind of helped sustain me.

745
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,600
But earlier on when I, you know,

746
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,320
wasn't quite in these realms or having these conversations,

747
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,400
yeah, you would have this like ambition,

748
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,920
this like buzz in your head

749
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,720
as you're holding a child in the dark

750
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:19,000
and they're like, their sound machine is going

751
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,200
and they're like, you know,

752
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,200
nightlights are on and you're just sitting there

753
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,040
like buzzing, like, I just need to get out of here.

754
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,800
I need to like draw something.

755
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,080
I need to learn something.

756
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,020
I need to like start a new project.

757
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,780
I need to draw something,

758
00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:27,060
I need to learn something,

759
00:40:27,060 --> 00:40:29,020
I need to start a new project,

760
00:40:29,020 --> 00:40:31,740
I need to get success.

761
00:40:31,820 --> 00:40:34,140
Yeah, to be totally honest,

762
00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:36,260
it was a really dark time.

763
00:40:36,260 --> 00:40:37,980
It's a tough time.

764
00:40:37,980 --> 00:40:41,340
It's a really tough time when you're thinking of

765
00:40:41,340 --> 00:40:44,660
all these things that you want to happen,

766
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:48,180
that you can't because you're holding a sleeping child.

767
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:52,260
I don't know, there's just survival, I think.

768
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,280
I don't know, there's just survival, I think.

769
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,920
You've got to give yourself some grace to be able to just suffer through those moments.

770
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,640
Well, suffer, but also cherish those moments, obviously, because you won't always be holding

771
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,920
that sleeping child.

772
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,640
But giving yourself some grace and some patience.

773
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:12,200
That idea of for all season, for all times there's a season or whatever, there's a time

774
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,160
for us just to calm and breathe and have a moment and meditate.

775
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,280
for us just like calm and breathe and have a moment and meditate and then

776
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,840
there's a time for us to run and keep going and move fast. So I don't I don't

777
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,240
think I handled it well in the beginning at all but you know like then later

778
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:29,320
you've got like two kids and you like allow them to have a little bit more

779
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,200
freedom because you know they're not going to like kill themselves you know

780
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,400
or they're not gonna hurt themselves too badly. They'll survive if you're not

781
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,120
holding them all the time and so like giving them that independence then gives

782
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,880
they'll survive if you're not holding them all the time.

783
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,160
So giving them that independence then gives you some independence,

784
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,840
helps you sleep a little bit better,

785
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,400
and then allows you some more time,

786
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,760
which is something I really needed.

787
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,640
Care Of is a spin-off of Computational Mama's live coding stream

788
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,920
called Coding with Friends.

789
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,640
Coding with Friends casually and simply claims spaces for women creators.

790
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,000
and simply claims spaces for women creators.

791
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:09,000
The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of camaraderie, friendship and care.

792
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:14,000
But after two seasons of coding with friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

793
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:20,000
in a pre-recorded format where the invited guests can talk more intimately about their work,

794
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,000
their lives and their ideas of care.