The Caring Train with Dan Shiffman

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Hi, welcome to Care Of. This is a short form podcast featuring conversations with creators,

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creative technologists about code, work and care. As I traverse ideas and realities of

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care in my life with first my grandparents and now my son, I recognize some shifts in

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the ways of thinking and working, differences in access available or afforded to me. And

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I can't help but wonder how care translates to others in the creator community. This podcast

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wonder how care translates to others in the creator community.

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This podcast is a simple attempt to open up, investigate,

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and document our practices from the lens of care.

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Mathematically, this care is directly

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proportional to time management.

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OK, so we are restarting.

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Let's see if this works.

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All right, I think you can hear me now, yes?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly, how do you say that word?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. How do you say that word?

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I need to share my parent relaxed with other creative coding.

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I will always be your number one hype woman.

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Okay, good, good. I'm not used to talking this much.

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I guess I'm out of shape.

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I do actually feel like, to me, the word care,

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I love that you're coming at this discussion with that word.

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And I think that's not the usual perspective that you will start with

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when it's in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding

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space. So,

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so there's all these different spaces of care to navigate.

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Thanks, Dan, for joining us on care of short form interview

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podcast with creative technologists and we're looking

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at code work and care. Today we have with us none other than the

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person who doesn't need an introduction, the most amazing

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an introduction, the most amazing. That to two and too many pets. Dan is an associate

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arts professor at ITP at New York University's Tisch School of Arts. Originally from Baltimore,

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Dan received a BA in mathematics and philosophy from Yale University and a master's degree

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and a master's degree from the ITP.

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He is one of the directors of Processing Foundation,

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and he develops tutorials, examples, and libraries

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for processing and p5.js.

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He's the author of Learning Processing,

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A Beginner's Guide to Programming Images, Animation,

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and Interactions, and the Nature of Code,

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an open source book about simulating natural phenomenon

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in processing.

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He's found talking incessantly on YouTube

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phenomenon in processing. He's found talking incessantly on

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YouTube about programming. But well, I guess every all of us

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know that and and of course, if you ask anybody about their

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creative coding journey, it's incomplete without mention to

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coding train. I originally started watching your videos

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after finding Nature of Codebook. And I recall, you went

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through a couple of names for it.

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Yes, the original name for the chat. Well, so first of all, I

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of names for it. Yes, the original name for the chat. Well, so first of all, I didn't really

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have an intention of let me start a YouTube channel about creative coding with this name

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and brand and this perspective. I just was kind of making videos for my students in class at NYU.

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So but at a certain point when I started uploading them to YouTube and I started live streaming,

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streaming, I wanted it to feel like a show or a thing.

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So I just, I think I even just improvised the name of it

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one day saying Coding Rainbow after inspired by

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this American television show from my childhood

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called Reading Rainbow.

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And so, and it's just, you know,

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I love the idea of rainbows and color

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and I just loved Reading Rainbow and the host,

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LeVar Burton is like, you know, one of my idols.

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So I just kind of said that and it kind of caught on,

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host, LeVar Burton is like, you know, one of my idols. So I just

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kind of said that, and it kind of caught on. But

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unfortunately, you know, and I think rightfully so. You know, I

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was I wasn't really thinking about where I was going with it.

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And as a fun homage to the to reading Rainbow, it made sense.

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But after I started growing a bit of an audience, they sent me

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a very nice but stern letter saying, you know, you can't

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really use this name. And you know, your logo is kind of

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this name and your logo is kind of obviously based.

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So that's when I kind of switched

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and I needed just to come up with a new name in a couple days.

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And I really should know who this was,

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but one of the viewers suggested Coding Train.

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I was like, that's good. I like trains.

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Sounds good. It's sort of fun. It's playful.

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And so that's where the Coding Train name started

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and it's kind of stuck.

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But I'm always like thinking like,

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it's kind of stuck. But I always I'm always like thinking like,

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you know, Oh, should I rename it? Should I have done a

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different name? I've never I never felt feel like really

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secure. But too many people know it by the coding train now. So I

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think I'm sticking with it.

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Yeah. I mean, I get it because I think I just started

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computation. Mama is this like little side inside joke. And I

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had just like a couple of friends who knew about the

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Instagram account, but I'm happy. It's turned into

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who knew about the Instagram account,

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but I'm happy that it's turned into something

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little bit, you know, like crazy.

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And like, I think something we don't have control over.

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But I love the name Computational Mama

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because it really, it's very unique

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and it offers like an immediate understanding

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of a kind of point of view and something different

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about what it is you're doing.

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I felt like Coding Rainbow did that too

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in the sense that I'm trying to say,

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this is like for play and fun and experimentation as,

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for play and fun and experimentation as,

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you know, there's nothing wrong with,

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I'm not saying this as like a criticism

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of more sort of like formal computer science study,

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which is very meaningful and important,

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but I just wanted to have a different vibe.

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So I don't know that Coding Train accomplishes that,

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but I think all of the branding and logo

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and all of the characters that Jason Heglund,

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who I've been working with for a number of years,

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that really made it, it really does work

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to kind of have that hopefully playful spirit

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made it, it really does work to kind of have that, hopefully,

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playful spirit and quality to it.

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Absolutely. And I think you're so open about the way you record

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it. And I think that's what you and Raf were also discussing

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yesterday. And it really not I mean, not in terms of producing

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content, but even in terms of your learning, if you see

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someone else kind of alter what here and there you feel like,

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okay, it's, it's very easy to kind of like, try this and not

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it's very easy to kind of like try this and not feel that you need to be perfect.

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And I think playfulness always comes with the idea of falling like in the

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playground. So it's exciting to kind of be able to, I do recall.

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And of course I read it out as well that many years ago in some stream,

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you did mention that you have a background in philosophy and mathematics.

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And I was just wondering how those two things came together and how you went to

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ITP. I think at that time it was Red who was, who was heading ITP.

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you went to ITP. I think at that time it was Red who was who was

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heading ITP.

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Yeah. So it's funny that that, you know, that bio that you

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started with is kind of just like a formal academic bio, I

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suppose. But I do feel quite disconnected from those days of

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being an undergraduate student, which is now over 25 years ago.

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And yes, I did major in math and philosophy. But, and you could

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And you could probably connect the dots between that field of study and what I'm doing now,

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but pivoting from your question in a way.

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But I was really, when I was in college, I was really into doing like music and theater.

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I'm not saying I was any good at it necessarily, but that was actually what I was doing

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as an extracurricular activity.

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And I think, but I loved, but I always loved, to bring it back to that,

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I always loved math and science.

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that I always loved math and science.

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So I think my whole life I've been kind of into like,

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ooh, I love doing these math problems.

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And also I love like writing weird songs,

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very poorly, I might add.

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I think I do everything.

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So not suggesting I do either of those things

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in an amazing way.

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But I think in a way,

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after I graduated from college and I moved to New York City,

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I was both continuing to do sort of some theater projects,

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unpaid sort of things.

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I was both continuing to do sort of some theater projects,

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you know, unpaid sort of things.

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I was working, I had a job as a paralegal for a while,

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but mostly I was working like as a freelance

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kind of computer person, not programming,

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but just like setting up networks and helping people,

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you know, again, you have to think about this

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as we're talking about like the late 90s, early 2000s.

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So even just like helping people to like figure out

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how to use their computer in their office

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was like a thing that people needed help with.

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helping people to figure out how to use their computer in their office was a thing that

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people needed help with.

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So I was doing that, doing theater, and I think ITP, not with some grand plan, but I

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found the program as a place where people were doing creative things with technology.

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And Tisch is the school, the theater, the film school, it's all there.

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So it felt like, oh, a place that I wanted to be.

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be. But once I got there, interestingly enough, I just sort of like fell in love with coding for

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its own sake, which is, I think I try to preach this point of view of coding is not a thing for

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coding. I mean, it can be, it is sort of for me, but it's really a thing to apply to whatever your

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passions and interests might be. But for me, I think, you know, I might have thought that I was

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going in a particular direction, but at ITP, I just, I discovered coding, and then I discovered

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ITP, I just, I discovered coding, and then I discovered

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processing, that I discovered teaching, and it all, I mean, I

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discovered teaching, I knew teaching existed. But I think I

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found that there was a place for me in teaching code. So that's

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what I just kind of got wrapped up in doing. And I've just been

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doing it ever since.

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So when you say music and theater, was it like musical

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theater?

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't picky. Anything that was

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I wasn't picky.

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Anything that was like entertainment related theater music

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like that I could like participate in,

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I wanted to participate in.

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But yes, I think the true love of my life,

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my only regret is that I didn't,

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it's not really a regret,

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but I mean, I never pursued that passion

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like really seriously.

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I think I've found a lot of puzzle pieces

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of things that I love.

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And I've arrived at this place where,

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but coding train is like this amazing thing

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of things that I love and I've arrived at this place where,

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but Coding Train is like this amazing thing that I get to do

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and I love the people that I work with

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at Processing Foundation and NYU and all the teaching

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and people that I meet.

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This is to me is so special that I get to meet people

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from all over the world and that have found my content

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and then I discover theirs and we kind of like,

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even though, hopefully someday we'll get to meet in person,

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but I feel like I have come to know so many different viewers

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But I feel like I have come to know so many different viewers and fellow streamers and

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coders like yourself from different backgrounds, with different cultures and different points

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of view.

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And that to me is so, so special.

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But maybe someday Coding Train the musical will happen and I can bring it all back together.

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That's my dream.

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Since we're on this theme, do you have any particular musicals that you've loved or are

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any particular musicals that you've loved or are your favorites? We've only seen them

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as films here.

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I mean, so I love a lot of the kind of classics. And when I was in high school and college,

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I was in like Guys and Dolls and anything goes. But a musical that I really love is

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a musical called Nine the Musical by Maury Eston. And I directed a production of it in

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the musical by Maury Eston.

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And I directed a production of it in college.

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And it's about Fellini, the Italian film director.

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Anyways, it's like an amazing musical.

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And I really love that show.

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But recently, I really loved,

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I mean, I loved seeing Hamilton, Dear Evan Hansen.

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I saw The Great Comet, which was really fantastic.

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You know, I used to work for,

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one of the early jobs I had before I went to ITP,

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thank you, by the way, for indulging this discussion.

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I don't get to talk about this,

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indulging this discussion.

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I don't get to talk about this,

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is I worked for the Leonard Bernstein Foundation

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for a number of years.

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So I was kind of like just like an office assistant

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and I helped with different projects.

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I like helped with their website.

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I mean, this again, many, many, this is over 20 years ago,

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but I've been so excited to see a West Side Story

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and anything Leonard Bernstein.

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I'm absolutely, certainly one of my idols growing up.

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And he unfortunately was not alive at the time

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growing up. And he unfortunately was not alive at the time when I

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was working for the Leonard Bernstein Foundation. He died

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well before I would have had the chance to meet him. But I, you

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know, I haven't seen the new West Side Story movie. So I keep

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meaning to see it. And I just saw that there's a Leonard

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Bernstein biopic that's coming out with starring Bradley

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Cooper. I think he's directing it too. So anyway, anything

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Leonard Bernstein, I'm also a huge fan of.

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Okay, we'll put it in the show notes for those who want to

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anything Leonard Bernstein, I'm also a huge fan of.

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Okay, we'll put it in the show notes for those who want to

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like pursue this, this idea of it.

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Yeah, any composer, musical theatre composers and writers

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out there get in touch with me, we're gonna start working on

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Code the Musical.

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So I think I'd like to delve a bit more into understanding I

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think this idea of coding train and how it was built. I mean, I

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know a bit of the story just as a viewer also, but

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was built. I mean, I know a bit of the story just as a viewer also.

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Yeah. I mean, I think that sort of like early history of just starting, of how I started

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it is like not something that people often ask about or like to hear about. And one of

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the things that I think helped me from the beginning was not being too precious about

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the videos. And it was really like my whole thing was, let me just press a button, record,

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really like my whole thing was,

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let me just press a button, record, talk, demo,

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and record, upload.

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So that's like one of the things

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that I really always try to do.

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And even where I'm standing right now to talk to you,

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like I don't ever record anything

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to memory cards on camera.

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Or do everything just goes into a computer

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using Open Broadcast Studio.

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So it's easy to record and upload

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without a lot of post-production,

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a lot of extra work.

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So it's easy to record and upload

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without a lot of post-production,

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a lot of extra work.

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But I will say that this is one of the things

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that is currently, I think, one of my main struggles

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or things that I wonder about

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because the more that I've iterated

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and tried to improve quality,

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I've been able to derive some income from sponsorships

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and people who are very generous with crowdfunding.

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And so I have now hired and worked with,

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with crowdfunding, and so I have now hired and worked with,

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you know, for many years a video editor,

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and now I have an animator, and we start doing more and more.

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So while the production quality has improved,

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the amount of content I make is less.

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And then should I focus on live streaming or edited videos?

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This is what I was talking about yesterday,

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so it's like very fresh in my mind,

303
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but this is actually something that I'm really always curious

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to hear from people and trying to find that right balance

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to hear from people and trying to find that right balance

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between like, let me I want to just make a lot of stuff so that

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people have things to learn and experiment with. But I also want

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to have it be high quality. So where's the right where's the

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right balance there? Anyway, that was a little tangent. I

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don't know if that was a useful tangent. I went on.

311
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No, that was nice. Because I think that was kind of one of

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the reasons I started coding with friends because I was out

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of content and anything new I was learning was anyway from

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your video. So it was just easier for me to tell people to

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And anything new I was learning was anyway from your video.

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So it was just easier for me to tell people

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to go watch your videos.

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And then I thought, OK, but what would be interesting

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and challenging is to see if we can take something that

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is in someone's mind.

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And they don't necessarily have the right coding skill

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to kind of take it forward.

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Myself, I don't.

324
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I mean, I'm not such an expert.

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But at least it helped to switch it around a bit.

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But when I'm looking at the live streams,

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I always wonder, how long, how are you

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bit. But when I'm looking at the live stream, I always wonder how

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00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,320
long how are you able to stand for so long?

330
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Well, I don't know why but I'm not I my energy is such that I

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find sitting I have trouble like, sitting is not a

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00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,960
comfortable place for me in sort of like teaching and

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communicating. I mean, sitting is on the couch with like, you

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know, my cats or whatever and watching a movie is like a very

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comfortable so there's nothing wrong with sitting but teaching

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my cats or whatever and watching the movie is like very comfortable.

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So there's nothing wrong with sitting.

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But teaching-wise, I've always felt like I need to be up and moving and drawing.

339
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,560
Like I've always tried to have a whiteboard handy,

340
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this green screen setup is so I can gesture and point to things.

341
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Again, who knows how much impact and how much this really matters.

342
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But for me, it's like my comfort zone.

343
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So I feel after a certain amount of time standing and teaching,

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amount of time standing and teaching,

345
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I start to feel kind of tired or brain dead

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and my energy will sort of wander.

347
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Sometimes I'll get a second or a third wind.

348
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But I think probably your perception

349
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of how long I can do it with keeping the same energy

350
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is false.

351
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But I do feel, so I think that probably

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I should do a better job of limiting myself,

353
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organizing what I wanna do in a live stream,

354
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taking breaks more.

355
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Like I would encourage anybody, don't follow my lead.

356
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taking breaks more.

357
00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:03,840
Like, I would encourage anybody, don't follow my lead.

358
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,840
But I do just have, I get really excited about code and teaching.

359
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,220
And there's, you know, I sort of think of it,

360
00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:12,980
I don't know if I think of it this way,

361
00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:15,180
or it's just, it's an outlet for performance

362
00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:19,720
and sort of like getting out any sort of goofy, silly energy that I have.

363
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,400
And so that kind of keeps me going during, like, live stream sessions.

364
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,860
And knowing that there's an audience out there,

365
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:28,240
however small or big,

366
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,760
knowing that there's an audience out there, however small or big, you know, I have such a wide range of,

367
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,840
based on times and topics of like, how many people are tuning in from, you know, five to 10 people to

368
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,760
like 1000 people. So, but like, just have knowing that feeling the energy of the audience. It's not

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00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:47,120
perfect. It's not like being in a theater where like people are watching, but that that helps keep

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00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,760
me going as well. Whereas I think if I were just sort of like recording a class with no one live

371
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,800
Whereas I think if I were just sort of like recording a class

372
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,700
with no one live tuning in,

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00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,080
we will steer it a bit into like coding train as a project and

374
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,800
care. Maybe I'll just give a few points that I thought like, for

375
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,800
example, I really enjoyed I think it was one of the first

376
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,680
times that you did a live stream of your original studio, which

377
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760
was this like narrow, like almost like a walk-in closet

378
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,400
kind of a space and showed all this, all the walls and your

379
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:18,200
all the walls and your setup and then, you know, suddenly from this very teacher thing

380
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,320
you had kind of flipped it around and it really like helped us, many of us I'm sure, to like

381
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,040
really feel very, you know, like attached to you as a person whom we are looking at

382
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,800
and looking up to.

383
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,440
And I mean, there may have been instances that I'm missing, maybe you'd like to talk

384
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,360
about something where you felt that, you know, that, because it's almost like community care

385
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,560
where you felt that, you know, that because it's here, it's

386
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,680
almost like community care is what what we can talk about

387
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,240
around coding change. So perhaps you'd like to tell us some

388
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,920
interesting incidents and anecdotes.

389
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,400
Yeah, I'm glad that I that you're giving me this feedback,

390
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,120
because I do feel like that this idea of care is really maybe

391
00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:02,800
more missing from the kind of online education, video, YouTube

392
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,600
education, video, YouTube space that I inhabit.

393
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,820
Whereas if I'm teaching an in-person class at NYU

394
00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:12,300
or wherever, workshop at a high school over the weekend,

395
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,340
and it's 12 people or 16 people

396
00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:15,940
and I can relate to them in the room,

397
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:19,660
I really try to start with an approach of care.

398
00:18:19,660 --> 00:18:22,420
Like, let me disarm everybody first

399
00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:23,900
and let everybody feel comfortable.

400
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,620
There's no pressure here.

401
00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:28,360
Don't worry if you don't know what we're talking about.

402
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:29,340
Like, that's why you're here.

403
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,360
no pressure here, or don't worry if you don't know what we're talking about.

404
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:29,360
Like, that's why you're here.

405
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:30,360
Let's all support each other.

406
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:34,840
So I always – and then I can have individual meetings or I can make eye contact or I can

407
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,480
come help somebody next to them.

408
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,680
So that approach of care and teaching in a classroom, I feel like, you know, there's

409
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,440
– it doesn't always – it's not perfect, like especially being in a large university

410
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,320
and with grades and stress and, you know, the global pandemic, there's so many ways

411
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,000
the global pandemic, there's so many ways that I could improve on caring for the students.

412
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,200
So I'm not saying like, oh, it just works like magically. But I've always felt like that is

413
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,320
missing a little bit from the online spaces, whether it's Discord or YouTube or Processing

414
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:12,400
Forum or wherever it is. But I think for me, what hopefully, and maybe you kind of alluded to this

415
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,200
to this in seeing the studio tour,

416
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,500
it's like I really try to keep in my mind always

417
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,380
the audience member, the person watching

418
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:23,720
who is maybe just watching for the first time

419
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,420
and knows nothing about what's going on

420
00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:27,920
in terms of code and coding.

421
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,920
And of course, I can't do that always.

422
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,500
I've got this video I'm making about wave function collapse,

423
00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:34,880
which is a very sophisticated algorithm

424
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,220
and requires a lot of sort of prerequisite knowledge

425
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:39,960
to sort of follow that code.

426
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,300
requires a lot of prerequisite knowledge

427
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,020
to follow that code.

428
00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:42,860
But I still, in the back of my mind,

429
00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:47,520
I'm talking to a person who maybe has never coded before.

430
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,620
And so to me, that's a form of care

431
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,240
to prioritize the beginner

432
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,740
and to prioritize the person who might feel like

433
00:19:56,740 --> 00:19:58,800
this isn't the space for them.

434
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,300
And again, based on who I am

435
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,240
and my identity and my life experience,

436
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,760
I can't do that perfectly for everyone,

437
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,160
based on who I am and my identity and my life experience.

438
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,660
I can't do that perfectly for everyone,

439
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:09,580
but I try my best to sort of foster that spirit.

440
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:13,220
So that to me is where care comes in.

441
00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:15,380
The other place not to ramble on too long

442
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:17,640
is like, I really try to think about

443
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,260
how can I celebrate the work that people are making

444
00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,360
based on videos that they've watched

445
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,780
or just in the same space.

446
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,880
videos that they've watched or just in the same space.

447
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,880
So can I retweet somebody or just reply?

448
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,000
I can't, I get a lot of emails asking for code help.

449
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,360
I don't reply to them all.

450
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,040
A lot of them I try to,

451
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,520
and I gone through different ways of managing that,

452
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,080
but I try to like pick targeted moments

453
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,600
where I can really like answer somebody's question

454
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,040
or give them some encouragement.

455
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,040
question or give them some encouragement.

456
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,040
And again, for me, I'm looking for who,

457
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,840
if, again, I can't make these kinds of decisions perfectly.

458
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,920
I don't have all knowing, I'm not all knowing,

459
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,920
but sometimes I get a feeling of somebody

460
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,560
who sent me an email that maybe they don't have

461
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,120
anybody else they could ask, or maybe they don't have

462
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:11,440
the support from teachers or at their school,

463
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,880
or maybe they come from a place where they don't have

464
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,240
as much access to support.

465
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,800
I come from a place where they don't have as much access

466
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,240
to support and knowledge.

467
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,200
So I try to find those moments where I can really

468
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,800
like reply to somebody and help them

469
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,520
and point them in the right direction.

470
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,400
So those are the sort of forms of care,

471
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,620
the sort of like, how do I project sort of friendliness

472
00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:33,360
and welcoming inclusive vibe to a larger audience?

473
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,440
And how can I find little moments where I can

474
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,840
have a one-on-one interaction

475
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,400
who was just answering somebody's email

476
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,800
have a one-on-one interaction,

477
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,360
who is just answering somebody's email,

478
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,200
where I can be provide some care and support

479
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,000
for somebody who maybe doesn't have it.

480
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:44,840
That's so beautiful.

481
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,960
I think it gives us a good sense

482
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,760
of how you're thinking about coding train

483
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,320
and everything around it.

484
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,620
But I think I want to shift the focus a bit.

485
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,520
I mean, I don't know if I should say,

486
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,460
I just I'm a little bit nosy,

487
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:03,200
but I think I just find that when I understand a creator

488
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,360
I just find that when I understand a creator or I mean I can say very easily a personality

489
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:11,800
that I mean you are a personality now, famous personality, when you get to know a bit about

490
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,980
them at you know how they manage at home and it kind of one endears you to them but also

491
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:24,080
I feel like you know you know you feel like okay if they can so can we kind of thing and

492
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,120
definitely like especially when I meet other parent creative coders I do feel okay this

493
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,160
Definitely, like, especially when I meet other parent creative coders, I do feel okay, this

494
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,280
is a possibility and I'm not crazy.

495
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,400
And maybe, I mean, I mean, I know that because there are so many people following you, so

496
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,440
you can like please share what you feel is best without, you know, interrupting your

497
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,440
your family's privacy.

498
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,760
I mean, I know that you have two cuties at home who draw with you occasionally, and I

499
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,680
think you tried to include them in during the lockdown stream.

500
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,640
occasionally, and I think you tried to include them in during

501
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,280
the lockdown stream. So maybe you can tell us a bit about

502
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,360
what's happening at home if you're

503
00:22:55,360 --> 00:23:00,120
Yeah, of course. So yeah, so I'm in an interesting place right

504
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:06,480
now, because I am currently on sabbatical from teaching for a

505
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,360
full year, so for 2022. So you know, halfway through this year

506
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,200
about June, that's about halfway through. So I definitely feel

507
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,640
That's about halfway through.

508
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,640
So I definitely feel like I'm in a more relaxed phase

509
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,440
of being able to have a nice sort of like work-life

510
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:22,400
family balance.

511
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,200
So if we were doing this interview like a year ago,

512
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,960
I probably would have many different things to say,

513
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:33,320
but it's still, it's such a challenge.

514
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,780
And so, yeah, I have two kids, they're 10 and 13.

515
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:41,200
I'm entering a whole new phase of parenting

516
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,520
kids, they're 10 and 13, I'm entering a whole new phase of parenting.

517
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,920
Because there were many years of having this sort of like,

518
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,160
toddler and elementary school.

519
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,720
And so we haven't really sort of like fully dived into the teenager years.

520
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,760
But some things have gotten easier and other things get harder.

521
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:04,280
I think I definitely struggle with how to prioritize and schedule myself.

522
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,320
with how to prioritize and schedule myself.

523
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,160
Because I think, you know, so it's easy for me to say,

524
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,320
and there's no doubt about this in my mind,

525
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,320
that well, like, my kids and my family

526
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,240
are the highest priority.

527
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,920
I can't even, I can't think of any way to argue with that.

528
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,720
At the same time, like I just, it's tricky to figure out,

529
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,720
like sometimes, especially when I was teaching,

530
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,240
if I wanted to keep the coding train going,

531
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600
I feel like, okay, well, I really,

532
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,360
if I'm gonna make this video, I gotta do it on Saturday.

533
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,500
I feel like, okay, well, I really,

534
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,220
if I'm gonna make this video, I gotta do it on Saturday.

535
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:30,960
Okay, wait, so there's Little League

536
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,260
and then there's a birthday party.

537
00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:34,380
Okay, I have a few hours.

538
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:37,220
They can watch a movie while I'm like recording.

539
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:40,440
And so then I start to feel guilty about that too.

540
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,480
So finding, I think that's a real struggle.

541
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,820
I have tremendous privilege in terms of like some,

542
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:49,480
having this full-time job, financial stability,

543
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:50,700
lots of family support.

544
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,800
financial stability, lots of family support.

545
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,900
So I think for me, there's a lot of,

546
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,840
I think a lot of challenges that parents face.

547
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,840
I have many, you know, ways to overcome those

548
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,260
that I think that come with a lot of ease.

549
00:25:05,260 --> 00:25:10,260
But I think just the sort of like balance,

550
00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:12,180
I think for me, it's the,

551
00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:14,120
I think one of the things that I really struggle with

552
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,760
is feeling like I'm not doing enough

553
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,080
I think one of the things that I really struggle with

554
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,300
is feeling like I'm not doing enough.

555
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:17,960
And I'm not doing enough.

556
00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:19,600
I didn't make enough videos,

557
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,260
or I never finished the second edition of The Nature of Code book,

558
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:25,300
or I didn't reply to my student emails.

559
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,340
And I have all these emails from people asking for help,

560
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,300
but I can't reply to them.

561
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,400
And I really want to spend more time with family,

562
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,320
but we're all just racing around and everybody's too busy.

563
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,480
So that to me is the struggle of like allowing...

564
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,900
One is just finding, and I haven't found this,

565
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,040
allowing, one is just finding, and I haven't found this,

566
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,940
some kind of acceptance with doing more

567
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:46,680
to take care of my kids means,

568
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,380
so that I am doing less with other stuff,

569
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:54,960
or just finding some kind of nice schedule.

570
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,720
I was actually, one of the things that I really,

571
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,140
I don't know how it is for you,

572
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,520
but that I admire about Raphael's work and stream,

573
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,520
I was on a guest on his Twitch stream yesterday,

574
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,500
about Raphael's work and stream.

575
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,660
I was on a guest on his Twitch stream yesterday.

576
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:09,860
He's just really like streams Sunday and Tuesday,

577
00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:10,780
if those are the right times.

578
00:26:10,780 --> 00:26:14,140
At these times, every week, there's this challenge.

579
00:26:14,140 --> 00:26:15,660
Every week, there's this newsletter.

580
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:17,500
Like I just, I'm not able.

581
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:18,780
He's very organized.

582
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:22,560
I just, I want to be more, I want to have that.

583
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,220
I feel like if I had that and I was maybe able

584
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,600
and I was maybe able to balance that well

585
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,400
with my sort of like family life.

586
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,400
I thought what it was, was teaching was my full-time job

587
00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:38,620
and I have that as like a true obligation.

588
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:41,100
Family is my heart and soul and love

589
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:42,960
and so it's my number one priority.

590
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,480
Coding training videos was just like a sort of hobby

591
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,320
that kind of fits in between all these things.

592
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,500
But I just have to be scatterbrained about it

593
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,520
But I just have to be scatterbrained about it

594
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,520
because it's not my family, it's not my work obligation.

595
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,220
But now that I'm on sabbatical, I'm realizing,

596
00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:59,480
no, it's all just too hard no matter what.

597
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,300
So it's not the teaching, you know.

598
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:05,960
And so maybe I'll have it figured out,

599
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,760
you know, come back to me at the end of 2022.

600
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,480
Maybe I'll have this all figured out.

601
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,720
But yeah, that's, but I think one thing just,

602
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,440
and one thing that's been really fun about doing this

603
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,920
That's, yeah, that's, but I think one thing just,

604
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,440
one thing that's been really fun about doing this

605
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,520
is my kids are big into like YouTube

606
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,720
and stuff online and making videos.

607
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,760
And so I feel like it's been fun to sort of

608
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,280
learn about this world that I'm much kind of older

609
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,660
than most people.

610
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,440
It are, you know, if you, I guess if like,

611
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,440
if you take the world of people who are sort of,

612
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,500
You know, if you, I guess if like,

613
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,460
if you take the world of people who are sort of,

614
00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:42,980
you know, full-time creators or YouTubers

615
00:27:42,980 --> 00:27:45,240
or part-time creators or YouTubers,

616
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800
I think I'm probably on quite the high end

617
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,700
of the age bracket.

618
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:53,200
But, you know, I kind of have,

619
00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:56,520
A, I enjoy the sort of like,

620
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,160
the ribbing that my kids will give me

621
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,860
for not like understanding or knowing certain things,

622
00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:03,700
but also I can kind of like wander in

623
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,660
and things, but also I can kind of like wander in

624
00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,740
and poke around and know things about this sort of like world

625
00:28:07,740 --> 00:28:10,860
of media and culture and YouTube and beyond YouTube,

626
00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:13,420
Twitch and other types of online platforms

627
00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:15,140
for video and entertainment.

628
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:17,220
So that's been kind of a fun way for me to relate

629
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:21,100
to my kids also by like having, you know,

630
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:22,580
I mean, it's sort of silly, but it's like, ha ha,

631
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:25,140
look at all the subscribers I have kind of thing.

632
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,800
Like as a joke in a way, like as a family, you know.

633
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,480
kind of thing, like as a joke in a way, like as a family, you know.

634
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,760
Yeah, I was actually meaning to ask you because I think for the for younger audiences, it's all

635
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,320
about YouTube. And you know, many of them aspire to be YouTubers when they grow up. And then you

636
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,800
know, you're already there. And how do they kind of like respond to it? Do they ever watch your

637
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,360
videos? Or are they into coding? I mean, I was keen to know about those things.

638
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,360
to know about those things.

639
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:49,860
Yeah.

640
00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:51,880
So it kind of ebbs and flows.

641
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,720
Both my kids are super into computers

642
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880
and super into creativity.

643
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,920
My son, I think, and I've done coding stuff with them.

644
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,160
I think one thing is also a really interesting dynamic

645
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,640
is I feel like I have all this experience,

646
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,800
and we talked about the word care, and sort of patient,

647
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,840
I hope, patience and care for my students,

648
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,960
and I hope patience and care for my students,

649
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,960
whether it's at NYU or a workshop.

650
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,520
And when I try to teach stuff to my kids,

651
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,480
we just like push each other's buttons

652
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,440
and it like doesn't work.

653
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,760
And that's just to say,

654
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,880
I don't mean like in some real negative,

655
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,240
we're like yelling and screaming

656
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,760
and like breaking plates kind of way or something.

657
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,000
In a way, it is sort of like in good fun.

658
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,640
But for whatever reason,

659
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,320
it doesn't really work so well for me

660
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,640
in good fun, but for whatever reason,

661
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,320
it doesn't really work so well for me

662
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,240
to try to teach my kids.

663
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,240
So I mean, we have a lot of fun together

664
00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:49,760
and we can do all sorts of things

665
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,720
that I couldn't do, I think, with other people in the world

666
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,680
that I could do with my kids and my family.

667
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,560
So I think one is I have stayed away a little bit of like,

668
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,360
hey, let's do weekend coding sessions.

669
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,280
But I brought them to things like Creative Coding Fest,

670
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,240
But I brought them to things like Creative Coding Fest,

671
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,480
that's a series that CyberCon has been organizing for years.

672
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,920
And so we've done different workshops,

673
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,960
but I have seen my son particularly,

674
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,960
like is really into like gaming and animation.

675
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,120
And so I actually was starting to think

676
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,440
about learning Blender.

677
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,800
Like, I think that might be like,

678
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,880
so I'm trying to find what are some,

679
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,640
what are the things that they love

680
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,680
What are the things that they love

681
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,300
and ways that I can kind of like help support them in that?

682
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,480
But yes, so I think they're more just bemused,

683
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,440
if that's the right word, at my like YouTubing

684
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,020
and kind of like almost in a more like eye-rolling

685
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:41,920
kind of way, like, oh my God,

686
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,920
there you are talking about like your YouTube channel again.

687
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:49,160
But I think they do,

688
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,960
we'll see whether the sort of coding aspect takes,

689
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,080
they do. We'll see whether the sort of coding aspect takes but

690
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,760
I do think that a lot of the things that I am interested in

691
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,320
that I express through code, I think they have the same

692
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,100
interest and we'll see whether they want to express it in

693
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:02,240
different ways or through code.

694
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,160
Right. That's interesting. I think I don't know yet where my

695
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,540
son will go because he's still learning the alphabet. But I can

696
00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:12,800
understand that like little frustration that you know,

697
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,200
sometimes you're trying to teach them something but they end up

698
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,240
frustration that you know, sometimes you're trying to teach

699
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,960
them something, but they end up, they just end up like pressing

700
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,680
some buttons. And then you know, like, it's like, oh, let's just

701
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,600
forget about this.

702
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,680
So,

703
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,000
well, it's weird to also like, I, I have so I try to be so

704
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,840
thoughtful with my students about like, not doing their

705
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,000
homework for them. Right. And trying to like, provide support

706
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,120
and lead them in a path and like, let me talk you through

707
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,800
provide support and lead them in a path

708
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,120
and like, let me talk you through this.

709
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,960
Well, let me, you know, I really like,

710
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,840
I noticed if I'm in office hours at NYU

711
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,400
that I, especially pre-COVID,

712
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,480
one of the things I like about,

713
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:46,980
no, there's nothing to really like about COVID,

714
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:50,520
but doing a lot of this like remote work

715
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,960
and remote teaching,

716
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040
I found that I had to articulate my help more.

717
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Like you fall back on like taking over somebody's computer.

718
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Like, let me fix this and show you how this works.

719
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:01,960
But I think with my kids for some reason,

720
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,400
I've just like, it's, I've lost that,

721
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,360
But I think with my kids for some reason, I've just like,

722
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,920
I've lost that, I lose that ability to like think through,

723
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,200
let me help you and support you in learning this

724
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,240
in your own way.

725
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,880
And I'm just kind of like correcting them.

726
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,200
Or like, no, I'm gonna show you how to do it.

727
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,920
So that's, it's like, I just have such a different

728
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,120
relationship with them.

729
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,440
It's very interesting.

730
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
Maybe that will change as they become older.

731
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,760
You know, if they're sort of like college age or adult age

732
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,880
you know, if they're, you know, sort of like, college age or

733
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,680
adult age that I will, you know, might there might be a way that

734
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,960
I find that I relate to them more like how I relate to some

735
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:38,280
of my students at NYU. But now it's just it's, it's just, we

736
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,280
just have it's, we have a lot so much fun together. But yeah,

737
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,760
teaching, me being their teacher is not the not not the vibe that

738
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:46,600
we have in our house.

739
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,520
So are they, are you a pre-dad creative coder or are you a

740
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:54,000
So are you a pre-dad creative coder or are you a creative coder post?

741
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:01,000
No, pre. So I started, I mean, I learned a little bit of coding in elementary school on Apple 2 Plus computer, Apple Soft Basic.

742
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:07,000
I've been thinking a lot about that because I have a series coming out on Nebula about Apple coding and basic.

743
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,000
But then I didn't really touch programming much at all.

744
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,000
I think maybe in middle school I did a little bit here and there, but it wasn't something that I was into.

745
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,600
in middle school, I did a little bit here and there,

746
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,400
but it wasn't something that I was into.

747
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,600
I just did whatever I did at school

748
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,800
because it was required.

749
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,960
And then I never took computer science classes.

750
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,200
I was doing a lot of adjacent, like math classes,

751
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,520
philosophy, logic classes, but I didn't.

752
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,020
So, and then I was working in computers

753
00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:39,640
and doing a lot of software networking,

754
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,640
and doing a lot of software networking,

755
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,080
just whatever, like kind of jack of all trades kind of stuff.

756
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,440
But when I went to ITP,

757
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,720
that's I would say where I really started coding.

758
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,800
And I was either 27 or 28.

759
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,240
I'm sure I can figure that out quickly.

760
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,440
But I think 27 when I started ITP.

761
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,640
And so I didn't have kids yet.

762
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,200
I think my son was born when I was 35.

763
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,560
So I learned to code and really got,

764
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:08,320
when I was 35. So I learned to code and really got, I had many years of that like ability to just like,

765
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,360
I have total control over my schedule and I could just work on stuff whenever and I then I can

766
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,640
choose what I'm going to relax, you know, I don't even remember how that was now. And I actually

767
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:27,920
found that, and this is maybe this comes part of this as being a dad and being, you know, a male

768
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000
being a male identifying person.

769
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,640
But I definitely found the infant time,

770
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,000
like a really wonderful time for me to both enjoy

771
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000
this new thing of being a parent.

772
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,280
I'm talking about the one infant.

773
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,280
One or two, nevermind, all out the window.

774
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,400
And also like keep my sort of like hobby,

775
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,800
creative coding kind of life going.

776
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,000
my sort of like hobby, creative coding kind of life going,

777
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,280
mostly just because one, I have a partner, a wife,

778
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,280
who is, you know, breastfeeding.

779
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,140
And so a lot of that responsibility, you know,

780
00:35:06,140 --> 00:35:09,000
was not on me, but, and there was so much time

781
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,840
where I've just like, oh, I have this baby in a carrier

782
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,280
and he's sleeping and I'm just like taking a walk

783
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,400
or typing, just remember, I have all these memories

784
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,300
and he's sleeping and I'm just like taking a walk

785
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:16,440
or typing, just remember, I have all these memories

786
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,440
and maybe I'm romanticizing it now

787
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,680
of like sleeping baby, I'm like coding.

788
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,720
So maybe that's an anomaly,

789
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,040
but I think really once we hit the toddler stage

790
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,800
and it's like running around child,

791
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,880
then there's two children, I don't even know.

792
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,160
I can't tell you how I did anything in the last 13 years.

793
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,320
I feel like it's coming back now

794
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,600
last 13 years. I feel like it's coming back now because they

795
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,760
really are at this age. There's a there's a level of

796
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,000
independence, which is new. There's a lot more fighting

797
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,080
going on in our house now. I think again, like there's a lot

798
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,360
more managing different personalities and moments, but

799
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,520
no, no, we all have memories of coding while the child was in

800
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,320
fact, even Kyle said that. I mean, of course, our reference

801
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,280
while the child, in fact even Kyle said that, I mean of course our reference was you, that

802
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,480
we would both be watching, you know, coding train videos while trying to get the kid to

803
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,320
sleep, oops, my past one way, while trying to get our kids to fall asleep or like, you

804
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,840
know, like they're just kind of waiting in between like diaper changes and you're trying

805
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,200
to do a little bit of like a sign wave or whatever. So we have those memories, so you're

806
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,000
So you're not romanticizing, I think it's pretty much what happens.

807
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,840
But yeah, it's very interesting to see.

808
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,440
It's like not only have you kind of put so much out there for us to learn from,

809
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,040
but I think we are also maybe learning from you as a parent about all this new

810
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,440
stuff that's going to happen and coming, are we?

811
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
So that's very interesting. I just wanted to, I mean,

812
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,600
we don't want to take up too much more of your time, but maybe we can just maybe

813
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:54,000
up to much more of your time, but maybe we can just maybe talk a little bit about, I think this

814
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,880
year you've been, and you mentioned it a few times that you've been on sabbatical. So it's a bit about

815
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:04,080
your own care and perhaps like, just to people adjacent to you and your family. So if you could

816
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,280
maybe share a bit about that and how it's kind of things have been different. Yeah, so first,

817
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,960
this opportunity, it really everybody,

818
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,700
you know, it's just an important part of life

819
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,620
to be able to find ways to take breaks

820
00:37:20,620 --> 00:37:24,320
and take care of yourself in addition to being productive

821
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,440
and taking care of other people

822
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,680
and all of those kinds of things.

823
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,440
So this is not my first sabbatical the way it works.

824
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,080
This is my second.

825
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,840
So I had a sabbatical in 2015.

826
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,520
Actually, back in 2015, that's really actually

827
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,440
Back in 2015, that's really actually,

828
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,440
the first sabbatical kind of launched

829
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,120
the coding train in a way.

830
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,080
Because I had been making videos

831
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,860
and I think I did some live streams before that sabbatical,

832
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:52,660
but I went away and I was in London.

833
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,520
I did a residency at NYU London,

834
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,080
and one that was such an incredible

835
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120
family bonding experience.

836
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,720
So something about the four of us being away

837
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,000
family bonding experience.

838
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,620
So something about the four of us being away,

839
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:09,380
and, you know, culturally, London is not that different

840
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:10,540
from living in New York.

841
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,140
So it wasn't an extreme cultural difference,

842
00:38:13,220 --> 00:38:15,920
but we were in Europe, we were in a different place,

843
00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:20,440
we didn't know anybody, and so it felt like an adventure.

844
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,480
And so one thing I would just say is,

845
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,640
if you have that opportunity to, as a family,

846
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:27,440
take adventures like that,

847
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,240
to, as a family, take adventures like that.

848
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:31,740
To me, that was one of my favorite times of life

849
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,540
was that semester, just that one semester

850
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,380
we spent together in London and all the kinds of...

851
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,480
I could go on forever about all the things we did

852
00:38:38,580 --> 00:38:40,180
and fun that we had.

853
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,820
But I do think, like, for me, that time

854
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,820
was both incredibly special family-wise,

855
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,260
but I think I also, whether it was intentional or not,

856
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,700
I had a lot of time there.

857
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Also, whether it was intentional or not, I had a lot of time there.

858
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,280
The project I was working on was the second edition of the learning processing book.

859
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,440
But I was also just sort of experimenting and thinking about video.

860
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,440
And it was at the tail end of that that I started uploading a lot of these videos that

861
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,000
I had made to YouTube and kind of like came back to starting the coding train.

862
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,340
So I think right now I'm in a similar place.

863
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,380
We didn't go to London, but I'm living outside of New York City,

864
00:39:17,380 --> 00:39:23,220
which I lived in New York City or in Manhattan and Brooklyn since 95,

865
00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:24,800
since I graduated from college.

866
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,420
And so this is, other than that one semester I spent in London,

867
00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:31,680
we're spending a year, just about two hours north of New York City

868
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,860
in the Hudson Valley, which is a beautiful area.

869
00:39:34,860 --> 00:39:38,940
And we have a place where we're staying, which I have this huge,

870
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,760
where we're staying, which I have this huge,

871
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,920
by New York City standards, gargantuan,

872
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,640
but just basically like a big garage.

873
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,640
And so I've never had that kind of space at home

874
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,400
where I've been able to set up kind of like a workshop.

875
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,360
So just sort of like a mental space

876
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,900
of having that physical space to work

877
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:57,660
has been really wonderful while being on sabbatical,

878
00:39:57,660 --> 00:40:00,500
being in a new place, discovering new things

879
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,320
with the family in terms of going on hikes,

880
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,080
or, you know, we have a yard here,

881
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,440
new things with the family in terms of going on hikes or, you know, we have a yard here. So we're

882
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,440
like, hey, we go instead of going to like the park. I do kind of miss actually like really

883
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,080
miss Prospect Park in Brooklyn. There's something actually really special about like we would go to

884
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,080
the park and play catch or play frisbee or have a picnic or whatever. But you got to like gather

885
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,560
up all of your stuff and your blankets and your things. And it's like a 10 minute walk to there.

886
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,360
So it is something quite new that's been really nice about like, you know, we have a little

887
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,120
that's been really nice about, like, you know,

888
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,400
we have a little basketball hoop

889
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,920
and we go outside and we play catch.

890
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,720
So that's been sort of special to have that kind of time

891
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,800
as a family on sabbatical.

892
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,800
Yeah, so that's kind of my experience right now.

893
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,800
I feel like I still haven't really gotten settled

894
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,440
and I don't know that I ever will,

895
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,120
like because so much of this first since January

896
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,860
has been trying to set up this studio space

897
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000
since January has been trying to set up this studio space

898
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000
and trying to get some momentum working on a new,

899
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000
I'm working on a new Coding Train website,

900
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000
a new edition of The Nature of Code book.

901
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,000
I'm probably trying to do too many things.

902
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,000
So I need to regroup this summer and kind of like set some realistic goals

903
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,000
and kind of map out how to find that balance

904
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,000
between all the stuff we're talking about,

905
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,000
like going on hikes and playing catch and watching movies at night

906
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,200
talking about like going on hikes and playing catch and watching movies at

907
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,840
night and going to the kids games and activities at school as well as like

908
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,640
accomplishing some of these coding train and related goals so at some point next

909
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,120
year I'm gonna go back to teaching my classes again and we'll see I think if I

910
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:35,400
can get get some new workflows and new ideas and some projects done I'll be in

911
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,240
a good place for that

912
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,000
for that.

913
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:49,920
Care Of is a spin-off of Computational Mama's live coding stream called Coding With Friends.

914
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,560
Coding With Friends casually and simply claims spaces for women creators.

915
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,760
The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of camaraderie, friendship and care.

916
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,520
But after two seasons of Coding With Friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

917
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,520
But after two seasons of coding with friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

918
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,560
in a pre-recorded format where the invited guests can talk more intimately about their

919
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,880
work, their lives and their ideas of care.